[D&D 3.5e] That New Pit Fiend

[dravot]

This really has me concerned about the ability of PCs to function.

If that is still a CR 16 creature, it's SR will mean that a 16th level wizard with greater spell penetration will need to roll a 16 in order to effect it with any spells. Without Greater Spell Penetration, there's no point in even trying. And the wizard had better have his spells prepared as Sonic damage and have Greater Spell Focus in the school or they probably won't do anything anyway. Heck, even with all that, the odds of both getting past the pit fiend's SR and getting it to fail a save are probably 1 in 20. (Actually, assuming a starting 16 int, a +6 headband, and 4 level increases Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy, the Horrid Wilting DC could be 30. Which means there's actually a 50% chance the Pit Fiend could fail. So with Greater Spell Focus and Greater Spell Penetration, the best a wizard can manage is a one in ten chance of dealing significant damage to the Pit Fiend with direct damage magic).

Your math is a bit off there. A 16th level wizard would need to roll 16 to bypass an SR of 32. If the wizard had Greater Spell Penetration, they'd need to roll 12 or higher (12 + 16 caster level + 4 GSP), but your point still stands.

 

[MinscFan]

Oh boy. I'm a little bummed that they have changed the basic stat block. That means every monster database out there is now invalid. They've also (essentially) made all the third-party creature books that came out as obsolete as 2nd edition material is to 3rd edition -- so along those lines, this is looking like a new version of D&D. While I want to see what the books contain before final judgement, it is not looking like it will be easily "compatible" with earlier material, whether created by WoTC or not. That's a major bummer.

I wonder if these changes will be in the Monstrous Races book? If not, they will have again released the cart before the horse -- a.k.a. Deities and Demigods, then Epic Level Handbook.

By adding a new base type (extraplanar) haven't they have also made other non-WoTC d20 stuff less compatible with the game?

I expect errata will fly, especially for spells -- and that includes in the previous WoTC class books.

This looks very much like version 3.5, not 3rd edition revised.

After saying that, I do like the revised stuff I've seen so far. The way they are handling monsters entries looks promising.

Tim

 

[Henry]

No one mentioned this, but I want some answers:

WHY THE HECK does a pit fiend have a +31 to the Tumble skill??????????????

Can't you just see a pit fiend doing a dive and roll, or a backflip, over the heads of the fighters to claw the party wizard to ribbons?

I guess the earlier poster who called him a "NEO" Pit Fiend wasn't far off the mark...

 

[Quasqueton]

Hmm, that being said, it sounds like the changes are going to be more drastic than I thought. Even tho everyone calls the revisions "3.5e", I deluded myself into thinking it was just going to be clarifications, little tweaks, and refinement: 3.1.

I guess it really will be half-way to 4e.

This was EXACTLY my thinking too.

Also, note that it would require Greater Planar Binding or Greater Planar Ally to summon a Pit Fiend now.

A good side effect of the stat changes? Or a good reason for the stat changes?

The modification of the Pit Fiend in and of itself is not that big a deal.

Butt...

If many monsters are modified to the extent the Pit Fiend has been, I will not be happy.

My thinking here too.

I've never used a pit fiend against any PCs, and I didn't have plans for one in the near future. But when they offer up this example of what they're doing, it makes me think all creatures will get a boost/alteration in power this drastic.

I appreciate and approve of how they are writing up the stat block for 3.5. Will make things much clearer. And the fact the whole creature will be on one page, together is a great boon to DMs.

I could understand changing some creatures' stats to more follow their own rules. For instance, I could see the pit fiend being altered to jive more with a fiendish template (or vise-versa). In 3.0, there is no real relationship between a "standard fiend", the fiendish template, and the half-fiend template. I would think that if they were to change the pit fiend stats, it would be to better match the "fiend" pattern.

But looking at this creature's stats, I don't see a pattern or reasoning.

I see they added 5 hit dice. Was that a randomly chosen number?

They get 54 more points in their ability scores. At least I see a pattern here. A pit fiend gets +26 strength, and +16 to each of the other abilities.

They give it +3 natural armor bonus. Was this just to round out the AC to 40 since the dex mod changes it from 30?

They get +4 to their spell resistance. How do they get this number? It does not raise the stat to HD x2 as the current fiendish template suggests. So why change this to 32 from its previous 28? Is there a game mechanics reason? Or just a change based on "feel"?

Their acid and cold resistance is dropped from 20 to 10. Why? Everything else got tougher. This breaks the upward pattern the other changes show. Is this somehow tied to their HD as suggested by the current fiendish template?

Why add two new powers - mass hold monster and power word stun? Are these just tacked on? Is there a game mechanic reason why pit fiends needed/should have these two?

See, I'm not opposed to them making some changes to clearify things and bring abberant creatures back into line with the rules. But when the changes seem to be without pattern or logic or reason, it is bad.

For the pit fiend, they should figure out exactly what it means in the game to be a fiend. Then make sure the pit fiend, other "standard fiends", the fiendish template, and the half-fiend template all followed those guidelines. The same with celestials, dragons, lycanthropes, humanoids, etc.

But this stat block is just changes. Is there a pattern/rule here? Or are these changes just because someone thought "it would be cool" to up the power?

Quasqueton

 

[Darkness]

Str 37, Dex 27, Con 27, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26

With pit fiends having these stats, deities' ability scores almost pale by comparison unless they are of a very high level and/or divine rank.

 

[Zappo]

Let's see if I can discern how many skill points it has.

No ranks in Balance (the +10 comes from synergy and dex). 21 in Bluff. 21 in Climb. 21 in Concentration. No ranks in Diplomacy (+10 from synergy and cha). 21 in Disguise. 21 in Hide, assuming that "Larger" gives a -4. 21 in Intimidate (with a +2 synergy from Bluff). 20 in Jump (with a +2 synergy from Tumble). 21 in each of his three Knowledge skills. 21 in Listen, Move Silently, and Search. Apparently 23 in Spellcraft, which is illegal - probably Knowledge (arcana) now gives a synergy bonus to Spellcraft? 21 Spot. No survival (it's listed to note the bonus on "other planes", whatever that means). 21 in Tumble (with a +2 synergy from Jump).

That makes for 335 skill points. 336 if 35 in Jump is a typo and should be 36 as I suspect.

336=16 x 21 = (8 + 8) x (18 + 3).

Theory: outsiders get skill points exactly as rogues, (8 + INTmod) x (HD + 3). This is nice because it simplifies monster designing: now we can simply give them 8+INTmod maxed skills.

So now Outsiders get the fighter's BAB, the monk's saves, and the rogue's skills. Scary. Good thing they don't have the barbarian's hit points.

Edit:
It's interesting to note that mr. Pit Fiend, lord of the Baatezu, most deceitful of devils, lacks Sense Motive.
Now all those folk tales about farmers tricking the Devil make sense.

 

[Dave Blewer]

MinscFan said:

made all the third-party creature books that came out as obsolete as 2nd edition material is to 3rd edition

This is a good point actually.

 

[Intrope]

Zappo, Outsiders already get Fighter BAB, Monk Saves and Rogue Skill Points. But I'm glad you did the math for me; in my short look at it, I thought he was getting 10 skill points per level, which would be really out of hand.

I also figured out one other thing: based on his number of feats, they've increased the feats for Outsiders (and perhaps others) to 1 + 1 per 3 HD from it's current 1 + 1 per 4 HD. That puts them more in line with PC feat counts, too.

On the reduction to Acid/Cold Resistance, they may have decided that he had too many high resistances.

I do find Tumble +31 to be, well, weird. Same goes for Climb and Jump (it can fly 60', why does it need to jump?). On the other hand, it has a fairly nice Hide & Move Silently check; even against a 16th level party it has some chance of getting the drop on them from concealment (bad. very bad).

 

[mmadsen]

Templates vs. Monstrous Multiclassing

The example of the new process given was simple, a were-wolf is really a multi-class monster and you add levels of "wolf" to the base creature.

Excellent! Monstrous multiclassing makes so much more sense for werewolves, vampires, fiends, etc. If the character is supposed to become increasingly monstrous over time, just add levels!

 

[Eridanis]

Well, MM 3.5E is now moving from my "look at" list to my "most likely will buy list." Including tactics is a beautiful thing - as mearls said, how many times do DMs forget a particular ability in the laundry list of cool things powerful creatures can do? Now the DM has a baseline to plan out his encounters from.

And U_K, I too am drooling to find out about the solar. Always one of my favorites from the 1st edition MM2, up there with the phoenix.