D&D 3E/3.5 D&D 3E Design: The Unbalanced Cleric

What do you call a D&D cleric who can’t heal? A 1st-level 1970s cleric. The original first-level cleric could turn undead but had no spells. Skip Williams says that the original conception of the cleric was sort of a Van Helsing figure, someone who bought the wolvesbane, belladonna, and garlic on the equipment list and who contended with the undead. The original cleric couldn’t cast cure light...

What do you call a D&D cleric who can’t heal? A 1st-level 1970s cleric. The original first-level cleric could turn undead but had no spells. Skip Williams says that the original conception of the cleric was sort of a Van Helsing figure, someone who bought the wolvesbane, belladonna, and garlic on the equipment list and who contended with the undead. The original cleric couldn’t cast cure light wounds or other spells until 2nd level, but they could turn undead at 1st. In terms of combat and spellcasting, clerics were intermediate between the other two classes: fighting-men and magic-users.

Aleena-by-Larry-Elmore_grande.jpg

Aleena the Cleric by Larry Elmore

With AD&D, the cleric’s role as a healer was established from 1st-level on, and they even got bonus spells for high Wisdom scores. They went from having fewer spells than magic-users did to having more. In 2nd Edition, the rules talked about clerics without healing powers, but that sort of cleric was not popular. Someone had to play the cleric, and that meant a cleric who healed party members. The poor cleric had to memorize healing spells, limiting their access to all the other cool spells that clerics have. Some spell levels lacked good healing spells, which was reportedly intentional. Since healing spells pushed out most other spell types, giving clerics no good 2nd-level healing spells meant that they were free to pray for spells that were more fun to cast. For 3rd Ed, we addressed that problem with spontaneous casting, letting clerics swap out any prepared spell for a healing spell of the same level.

One thing we decidedly did not fix in 3E was that somebody had to play the cleric, or something close. In the RPGA’s Living Greyhawk campaign, my barbarian picked up a level of cleric at 2nd level just so I would never again play in a party with no cleric. Then for the next two levels I continued with cleric because I was not a fool. The 3E cleric ended up so unbalanced that at Wizards I gave a presentation to RPG R&D on why it’s more or less impossible to balance the class. To understand why the cleric is hard to balance, it helps to think of the cleric’s opposite, a “berserk” class.

With a “berserk” class, the barbarian-type character deals an oversized amount of damage, which is balanced by damage that the character sometimes deals to allies. The “berserk” is cool to play because it deals lots of damage, and it’s the other players who really pay the cost that balances this benefit. Variants on this idea have appeared a couple times, but I consider this sort of class virtually impossible to balance. For its distinctive feature to be powerful enough to appeal to the player’s sense of power, the damage to allies has to be high enough to annoy the other players. If the “berserk” is fun to play, it’s at the cost of other players’ fun.

The cleric is the opposite of the “berserk.” The cleric’s combat ability is penalized in order to balance its healing capacity. This healing power, however, benefits the rest of the party more than it benefits the cleric itself. Unlike the player who likes playing berserks, the cleric player gives up some of their power in order to benefit the party as a whole. The cleric’s trade-off is something like, “Well, you’re not as combat-worthy as a fighter or wizard, but that drawback is balanced by all the healing you provide to other player characters.” How do you get players to play an altruistic character class like a cleric? How, as game designers, could we make clerics interesting to play when so much of their power benefited other characters instead of making the clerics themselves cool? We never framed the question that clearly to ourselves. Instead, we intuited a balance that seemed right. The answer to the trade-off was to make the cleric pay a small cost in terms of reduced combat abilities for a large benefit in terms of healing. Players would play them because they’re almost as cool as other classes in their own right (small cost), and they offer a significant amount of healing, which makes them valuable (big benefit). What do you get when you give a class a significant benefit and balance it with an marginal penalty? You get a class that’s overpowered.

On the plus side, I’m pretty happy with how the clerics turned out in terms of flavor. The 2E clerics were sort of generic. Since the 2E Player’s Handbook was world-agnostic, the rules for clerics were based on their Spheres of Influence rather than the identities of particular deities. In my personal AD&D experience, I liked playing clerics because one’s connection to a deity and religion gave me plenty of material for how I would roleplay a character. In 3E, the gods of Greyhawk gave default 3E clerics more world flavor than default 2E cleric had. Short descriptions in the Player’s Handbook were all players needed to hang their imaginations on these gods.

The puzzle of the altruistic character class intrigued me, and I came at the concept with two new classes for 13th Age. The occultist is a spellcaster who breaks the laws of space and time to protect allies and to make their attacks more effective. Most of the occultist’s spells are interrupts that get cast on other characters’ turns. For 13th Age Glorantha, I designed the trickster class. Their default attack deals literally no damage, but it sets up allies to hit the target for additional damage. Tricksters also have various ways of drawing bad luck on themselves to benefit other characters. The trickster class is so altruistic and masochistic that it has, I think, only niche appeal. It might be a class that’s more fun to watch being played than to play.

Another issue with the cleric is that it’s impossible to balance classes with mostly per-day abilities (that is, spellcasters) against classes whose abilities are at-will, such as the fighter or rogue. That issue, however, is a topic for another day.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

DWChancellor

Kobold Enthusiast
Wow, I completely disagree. I think 5e clerics are great mechanically.

I'd second that. The term "generic" just doesn't cut it. If there were 4 character classes all vaguely like cleric I'd say they felt "generic." The fact that other systems were more wonky and could allow extremely broken and complicated builds doesn't make them "characterful [or whatever the opposite of generic is here]" it makes them complicated and wonky. Which can be a lot of fun!

5E clerics are a main caster with full spell progression and the cleric casting list with flavorful extras. Wizards are the same, but with wizard spells. If that's "generic" than I'd anything straightforward in design is "generic." That makes all of 4E "generic" (which it surely wasn't).

Complexity and stark differences in ultimate power levels aren't magically superior; and simpler designs aren't "generic" just because. And, sure, some of us would like stronger attachments to sources of power (Gods, etc.), but the playtest feedback was clear enough they all but removed alignment restrictions on paladins. That's powerful feedback.
 

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Ed_Laprade

Adventurer
Yes, that has increasingly bothered me over the years (despite playing a number of clerics in 3e). I haven't made up my made yet, though, on whether I would prefer to have healers as NPCs or as part of some other magic-user class.
I've wanted to get rid of the Cleric and give their spells to a more generic MU for ages! (I especially get annoyed at Clerics of the local God{ess} of Magic who doesn't have access to ALL of the Wizard/Sorcerer spells! In the words of The Hulk: "Puny god.")
 

Undrave

Legend
Two acolyte background clerics of the life domain may be very different because of the Traits/Ideals/Bonds/Flaws they have

You have a weird definition of 'very different'. I think spell selection will probably be the bigger impact show they play. Traits/Ideals/Bonsds/Flaws never do anything.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
You have a weird definition of 'very different'. I think spell selection will probably be the bigger impact show they play. Traits/Ideals/Bonsds/Flaws never do anything.
Too many folks ignore these. They are pretty important in my games (I use them to decide inspiration, XP for role-playing, first impressions and reputation, all that) but I've also seen players not even bother to fill them out on their character sheet.

To each their own, I guess.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
You have a weird definition of 'very different'. I think spell selection will probably be the bigger impact show they play. Traits/Ideals/Bonsds/Flaws never do anything.

Apparently that's true for some games as I'm seeing here in this thread.

Not in my experience, but YMMV.

The groups I've played with use all that stuff as RP touchpoints for their characters to help them inform character actions and reactions to RP/IC situations, especially if they can't think of how their character would act in a situation. More so than alignment, the Traits/Ideals/Bonds/Flaws give more practical ideas of how you envision your character's attitudes and personality.

So in my experience, those things mean so much towards differentiation of characters who otherwise might be similar.
 

Superchunk77

Adventurer
Too many folks ignore these. They are pretty important in my games (I use them to decide inspiration, XP for role-playing, first impressions and reputation, all that) but I've also seen players not even bother to fill them out on their character sheet.

To each their own, I guess.

I think we are talking about two different things. The difference is what you can do versus how you do it.

In 5e, your background tells you how your character approaches other characters and how they deal with situations.

Your class (and sometimes your feats) tell you what you can do in those situations. In 5e, that's what I see as generic and restricted to one or two choices.
 

Undrave

Legend
Too many folks ignore these. They are pretty important in my games (I use them to decide inspiration, XP for role-playing, first impressions and reputation, all that) but I've also seen players not even bother to fill them out on their character sheet.

To each their own, I guess.

I'll read them and consider them but usually I don't bother writing more than maybe one word per block.

Apparently that's true for some games as I'm seeing here in this thread.

Not in my experience, but YMMV.

The groups I've played with use all that stuff as RP touchpoints for their characters to help them inform character actions and reactions to RP/IC situations, especially if they can't think of how their character would act in a situation. More so than alignment, the Traits/Ideals/Bonds/Flaws give more practical ideas of how you envision your character's attitudes and personality.

So in my experience, those things mean so much towards differentiation of characters who otherwise might be similar.

They'll still play the same mechanically if they take all the same spells.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
They'll still play the same mechanically if they take all the same spells.

I guess in the mechanical application of those spells, yes. But the when, how, where, in what order, etc., IMO, should be different based on the character's outlook (as determined by background and the traits, etc therein).

I suppose what's at the base level here, is that I don't care if two PC's have the same exact mechanics as long as they are different characters from RP. To me that makes them very different characters, not the mechanics of what they do.

Just because two acolyte life clerics have Spiritual Weapon, Cure Wounds, Shield of Faith, and Sanctuary memorized, doesn't mean that combat with them will look the same depending on their specific character makeup.

One who is more based on the 2 on the d8 for Traits:
I can find common ground between the fiercest enemies, empathizing with them and always working toward peace.

Vs. 1
I idolize a particular hero of my faith, and constantly refer to that person’s deeds and example.

Are going to apply those spells differently. With one starting a combat by casting shield of faith on one person and then Sanctuary on another in the next round, then curing. Vs. the other who idolizes some Life hero who fought undead would spiritual weapon and charge in, then shield of faith themselves.

Heck, if two PC's idolize different heroes of the faith, they could apply the same spells differently.
 

Anoth

Adventurer
PF2 has (to my mind) the best approach for this; races have bonuses and penalties, but all races have at least one free-floating bonus to any stat. Your class and background also give a combination of fixed and free floating bonuses. Any race and background can start with a high score in the main attribute of the class, but you still preserve the "flavor" of the race.
PF2 has a lot of good ideas. Too many good ideas all at once
 

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