D&D 4E D&D 4e: A Fun, Fast Game that will Eat Your Paycheck

w_earle_wheeler

First Post
Everyone is going to have their two cents on the books, and outside of being D&D enthusiasts and message board warriors, none of us are exceptionally qualified to have our opinions bear more than a passing glance.

And I'm not excluded from this. However, since I've been very critical of WotC over the past eight months, I think my opinions might be worth four copper pieces, at least.

Art & Layout: The full-page chapter art is gorgeous and incredibly evocative. The layout for all three books is very clean. Most importantly, wherever possible, power descriptions and monster information is kept all on the same page.

This results in a little too much white space. I know the often repeated mantra of layout and design is that white space is good, but in many cases, it just looks like an unfinished page. It's a decent price to pay for keeping information grouped together -- I just wish that more of the white space had been used for note boxes and fluff text.

The Rules: The rules seem great. After playing in one demo and running one, I now have a healthy loathing of kobolds. Shifty little freaks.

After playing D&D for over 25 years or so, this is probably the most excitement I've had playing a first level character since the Moldvay box set. The rules work and the game is fun. So fun, that it overrides my other criticisms below:

Fluff: Smashed together names, millions of them. Three types of elves and no gnomes? No core half-orcs or druids? Did we really need the Tiefling in there? Bigby exists but forgot to add his name to the Crushing fist spell?

The fluff text for powers, however, is really cool.

The DMG: I really like the encounter and treasure set-up. WotC wasn't kidding when they said the game was going to be easier on the DM. This is sweet, sweet stuff. The same with the Monster Manual -- that's the book that's really been blowing DM's socks off.

I don't think I'm going to have any problems converting my Dungeon Crawl Classics and Dungeon adventures to 4e.

Incomplete: To a new player of D&D, one who hasn't played before this edition, the game will not feel incomplete. Actually, anyone who skipped over 3.0/3.5 might not feel that the game is incomplete. But those of us who played 3.5 for so long, even with just the core books, can't help but morn the exclusion of certain classes and races as core -- even if we could easily house rule them back in.

I'm finding myself looking forward to the Magic Item book, the DMG 2 and the MM 2 (which will hopefully fill in most of the old-school monster gaps). And Ari's book, of course.

Now, the game really isn't incomplete. It just feels that way to me. I feel like I'll be missing out on what I could do with 3.5 if I don't subscribe to the DDI...

The DDI: 60% of the eggs are in the basket here. Like Han Solo, I have a bad feeling about it. I hope that I'm proven wrong, and that it works and makes players happy.

Clarity: OK, so I've been jumping all over the books since I was able to read them at work (FLGS) Wednesday, and I haven't had time to read them through from beginning to end. I've had to read over some entries two or three times to make heads or tails of them -- but right now I'm not criticizing the writing, as I would need to approach it in a more linear fashion first.

So, overall: This is a really fun game. It's easy to learn. It will drain your wallet with miniature and supplemental purchases. You can go from 1st to 30th level in around a year and a half of playtime, give or take how often you play.

And right now I'm going to make my first character. Wish me luck.
 

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Kzach

Banned
Banned
w_earle_wheeler said:
Everyone is going to have their two cents on the books, and outside of being D&D enthusiasts and message board warriors, none of us are exceptionally qualified to have our opinions bear more than a passing glance.
I beg to differ.

I've had my opinion valued by an independent (I'm single) valuer and he said it was worth more than anyone else's.

w_earle_wheeler said:
And right now I'm going to make my first character. Wish me luck.
Whoohoo!

Have fun! I know I am :)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
w_earle_wheeler said:
Art & Layout: The full-page chapter art is gorgeous and incredibly evocative.
Good to hear. I hope they picked up where Worlds and Monsters left off.
The Rules: The rules seem great. After playing in one demo and running one, I now have a healthy loathing of kobolds. Shifty little freaks.

After playing D&D for over 25 years or so, this is probably the most excitement I've had playing a first level character since the Moldvay box set. The rules work and the game is fun.

The DMG: I really like the encounter and treasure set-up. WotC wasn't kidding when they said the game was going to be easier on the DM. This is sweet, sweet stuff. The same with the Monster Manual -- that's the book that's really been blowing DM's socks off.
Sounds good.

So, overall: This is a really fun game. It's easy to learn. It will drain your wallet with miniature and supplemental purchases. You can go from 1st to 30th level in around a year and a half of playtime, give or take how often you play.
That's my main question overall: can it stand up to a 10-year 750-session campaign?

From all I've seen it looks good for convention games, tournaments, one-off adventures, and short (and I define anything under 2 years as short) campaigns. But if it can't stand in for the long haul, it won't do me much good. :)

Lanefan
 

w_earle_wheeler

First Post
Lanefan said:
That's my main question overall: can it stand up to a 10-year 750-session campaign?

A little to early to tell. :D :D

But, I do think that the game would work well for lots of one-off skirmish games. We had fun just running combats and having "incidental" role-playing, kind of like the origin of D&D when it was a tabletop wargame.

For a ten year in-depth game, I'd say it just depends on how much role-playing takes up each session. And I'm the kind of guy who can role-play Monopoly, so I doubt the rules will get in your way: but most of them are very geared toward tabletop miniature battle resolution.

Kzach said:
I've had my opinion valued by an independent (I'm single) valuer and he said it was worth more than anyone else's.

If we sell our opinions back to the vendor, we'll only be getting 20%. :ranged:
 

helium3

First Post
I've been over the books a fair amount and there's definitely a clarity issue of some sort. Not sure why though. Half the time it's like the relevant rule is in a weird place and the other half it's just that the actual sentence or paragraph construction is poor.
 

thatdarnedbob

First Post
Lanefan said:
That's my main question overall: can it stand up to a 10-year 750-session campaign?

From all I've seen it looks good for convention games, tournaments, one-off adventures, and short (and I define anything under 2 years as short) campaigns. But if it can't stand in for the long haul, it won't do me much good. :)

Lanefan

This sparks my curiosity. When you had a 750 session campaign, did you advance levels and gain experience by the books? If so, which did you have, a level 50 campaign or very little combat?
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
I ahve to agree, 10 years and 750 sessions sounds very far outside the norm, far enough that it is irrevelent for most gamers. Especially if you played core-only, as you seem to suggest.

How about 2 years and 100 sessions. Assume 3 encounters a session and you are right at level 1-30 as the books recommend. That sounds more reasonable.

Now I say this as a DM who has run a single online campaign that went from 3.0 to 4E with nearly the same players and the same plotline. I know what a long-running gmae is.

But to answwer the question..... maybe not. But then again if i compare it against core 3.5 I would say it is far far better. The PHB in 3.5 was for low level, and it was glaringly obvious that WOTC thought most gamers stopped around level 10 or maybe, possibly 15. This 4E is made for all elvels of play, though iot might get repetative at some point, allowing people to retrain at all levels (though it throws realism for a spin) is onle way to keep the game fresh.
 

w_earle_wheeler

First Post
helium3 said:
the actual sentence or paragraph construction is poor.

Yeah, that's the impression I was getting. The language seemed... circular, unclear. Again, I'll hold off judgment until I've read through in a more conventional fashon.
 

Vaeron

Explorer
Use an erasable battlemat with some different color dry-erase markers, and use some of the nifty online counters you can print up instead of miniatures, and you can play D&D to your hearts content for the next year or so for less than $20.

And many people will have gotten all 3 books for as low as the mid $50's, so this is actually an inexpensive hobby.

BUT... What they show on DDI so far looks very promising, and that's another $15 a month, and I've heard they'll do books for Dark Sun, and Ravenloft, and Planejammer... Oooo. Yeah, it'll add up.
 

DeusExMachina

First Post
Vaeron said:
Use an erasable battlemat with some different color dry-erase markers, and use some of the nifty online counters you can print up instead of miniatures, and you can play D&D to your hearts content for the next year or so for less than $20.

We reecently started using the battlemat with markers and I must say it's great. Instant maps whenever you want...
As for the miniatures we use a mix of old Mage Knight, Warhammer and some newer D&D miniatures, so that didn't cost us much at all. Also with 7 people in our group, spreading the costs of this stuff really keeps things very affordable...

All in all, we've probably spent more money on drinks and snacks than on actual roleplay equipment...
 

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