D&D 4E D&D 4E Rageblood Armor Question

[Scrivener of Doom]

I have the same question. A barbarian in my game has this armor and THAT particular rage power. He regained about 60 hp total in one fight. We decided to let it go till afterwards. His arguement is that the attack has the keyword Rage in it, therefore it spawns the armor property. My reasoning is that it is an effect of the rage, not a rage itself. So when he first uses it, he heals 10+ Con mod; no problem. But, he shouldn't get the healing effect every time he uses the attack from the power he activated afterwards.

Thoughts?

You've been conned by your player.

The rage power is used when it is used, not each time its secondary effects kick in.

The healing applies ONCE per daily rage power used. And that's it.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

BTW, the Rules Compendium has this to say about daily powers (page 91; emphasis mine):

When a creature uses a daily power, the power is expended, and the creature must take an extended rest (page 172) before it can use that power again.

A rage power can only be used once and then it is expended. It cannot be expended multiple times, ergo it cannot trigger the rageblood armour's healing multiple times.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm always wondering about this kind of rule questions. There's a simple rule of thumb in RPGs:

If a rule interpretation would result in a power to be too good to be true, the interpretation must be wrong.

Applying that rule will allow you to find the correct answer to questions 99% of the time (the remaining 1% resulting from a power that will/should receive errata).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is correct.

'Use a power' is not the same as 'Attack'. Using a power is the specific act of activating your power. Attacks on future turns that benefit from or are offered additional attacks (Warden's Guardian forms, for example) are not considered 'using a power.'

Wait a minute! Powers granted by other powers are still powers and still must be used. If this was true you could bypass restrictions like power use in wildshape for instance. I agree that gaining benefits from a power SHOULDN'T be considered 'using' it, and SOME texts seem to be written with this in mind, but others are not. This was a debate that raged long and hot on the 4e Q&A thread back in the day, with no definitive resolution ever reached.

Certainly I disagree that using a power granted by another power isn't using A power of some sort, not the original granting one, but certainly the subsidiary power IS being used, and if it has the 'rage' keyword then by RAW it would trigger the Rageblood Armor effect.

Frankly I strongly doubt this was the intended effect. The item was intended to give a benefit once per daily power use by the barbarian, a nice but not ridiculous benefit at the level it comes into play. Like others have said, Rage Strike won't trigger it by RAW but probably should, and secondary rage powers shouldn't (but do by RAW).

 

[DracoSuave]

Wait a minute! Powers granted by other powers are still powers and still must be used.

Holy necro batman! I forgot all about this. Dust off my 4e rules judgery, decyphering what I said.... okay.

I agree. When a power gives you a power, using that new power is considered 'using a power.' If that power has foo keyword, it would be using a foo keyword.

However, we're not talking about a power that gives you a power. We're talking about Thunder Hawk Rage, a barbarian power that has a secondary attack. Secondary attacks are not powers. They're secondary attacks.

If this was true you could bypass restrictions like power use in wildshape for instance. I agree that gaining benefits from a power SHOULDN'T be considered 'using' it, and SOME texts seem to be written with this in mind, but others are not. This was a debate that raged long and hot on the 4e Q&A thread back in the day, with no definitive resolution ever reached.

Warden's dailies often give you powers that you can use. Using the attacks those powers give you would be considered 'using a power.' Thunder Hawk Rage does not give you a power, and therefore there is no 'power to use' when you activate its secondary attack.

To verify this--notice that the descriptions for Warden dailies include a -power description- that the daily gives you as part of its effect. It even says you can use these -powers-. In contrast, Thunder Hawk Rage simply says 'Secondary Attack'.

Certainly I disagree that using a power granted by another power isn't using A power of some sort, not the original granting one, but certainly the subsidiary power IS being used, and if it has the 'rage' keyword then by RAW it would trigger the Rageblood Armor effect.

I agree. However, we're not discussing this fictitious power-giving-rage power in this example. We're discussing a power with a Secondary Attack. Secondary Attacks are NOT powers.

Frankly I strongly doubt this was the intended effect. The item was intended to give a benefit once per daily power use by the barbarian, a nice but not ridiculous benefit at the level it comes into play. Like others have said, Rage Strike won't trigger it by RAW but probably should, and secondary rage powers shouldn't (but do by RAW).

If there's an example of a secondary rage power, we can discuss that. If all we have is a rage power with a secondary attack, then we have a completely different and shorter discussion. 'No, it's not using a power, so no, it does not work.'

If you have an ability that triggers off Rage Attacks, on the other hand, totally works.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Holy necro batman! I forgot all about this. Dust off my 4e rules judgery, decyphering what I said.... okay.

I agree. When a power gives you a power, using that new power is considered 'using a power.' If that power has foo keyword, it would be using a foo keyword.

However, we're not talking about a power that gives you a power. We're talking about Thunder Hawk Rage, a barbarian power that has a secondary attack. Secondary attacks are not powers. They're secondary attacks.



Warden's dailies often give you powers that you can use. Using the attacks those powers give you would be considered 'using a power.' Thunder Hawk Rage does not give you a power, and therefore there is no 'power to use' when you activate its secondary attack.

To verify this--notice that the descriptions for Warden dailies include a -power description- that the daily gives you as part of its effect. It even says you can use these -powers-. In contrast, Thunder Hawk Rage simply says 'Secondary Attack'.



I agree. However, we're not discussing this fictitious power-giving-rage power in this example. We're discussing a power with a Secondary Attack. Secondary Attacks are NOT powers.



If there's an example of a secondary rage power, we can discuss that. If all we have is a rage power with a secondary attack, then we have a completely different and shorter discussion. 'No, it's not using a power, so no, it does not work.'

If you have an ability that triggers off Rage Attacks, on the other hand, totally works.

Ah yes, we are into the ambiguity zone there where sources such as the online Compendium and some other reprints of powers, especially earlier ones from the PHB1/2 era are reproduced as a pair of powers, primary and secondary, instead of just an abbreviated phrase as in those books. This same thing happened with a lot of stuff, including some class features. In the case we're talking about, a Rage, it wouldn't matter, any subpart of a greater whole has all the attributes and keywords of the whole, unless otherwise stated in the effect block in question.

So a secondary attack granted by a rage is still a use of a rage power. I don't see anything in RAW that would contradict this. You can validate this line of reasoning by asking yourself what otherwise is it? It must be an attack, and ALL attacks involve the use of a power, this is another line of reasoning which confirms it.

 

[DracoSuave]

So a secondary attack granted by a rage is still a use of a rage power. I don't see anything in RAW that would contradict this. You can validate this line of reasoning by asking yourself what otherwise is it? It must be an attack, and ALL attacks involve the use of a power, this is another line of reasoning which confirms it.

No, it's a rage attack. For it to be a use of a rage power, it has to, explicitly, be a specific POWER. Secondary Attacks are not, and have never been, themselves powers.

For example, if you have a ranger attack power that has Attack, a Secondary Attack, and a Tertiary Attack, you did not use three powers. You used one power, but made multiple attacks.

In the case of this, you are using ONE power, but you're making multiple rage attacks.

Attack and Power are two different game terms... an attack is an effect of a power. Using a power does not imply making an attack, and making an attack does not imply using a power.

For an example of a power that has a secondary POWER--look at warden's dailies. They give you a permanent effect that gives you access to an at-will power, complete with green title, the At-Will keyword, and all the keywords and details that come with a power.

All THR comes with is a line: "Secondary Attack." No descriptors, no power templating, nothing at all to indicate that it's a distinct power, as opposed to a secondary attack that is the same as every other power that grants a secondary attack. What is the usage-key-word of this 'secondary power'? If it IS a power, and it inherits the keywords of its father power, then it's has the Daily keyword, and you can only use it once per day--that's not right is it? Of course not.

I agree that using that secondary attack is, technically, using the power, in the sense you are continuing to use that power you've already used. It is not, however, a distinct use of that power. It is not using a new power, it's continuing to use a power you've already used. It does not trigger things that trigger off the use of a power, it does not use the 'Use a Power' action. In other words... if you have a power that has a secondary attack, you 'Use a Power' once, but you 'Attack' as many times as that one power use allows.

It WILL trigger any abilities that trigger off attacks as many times as it lets you do so. It will NOT trigger any abilities that trigger off powers, as you only have only used one power during the entire situation.

RAW, there is only one power used. RAW, powers can have secondary attacks. Attack and using a power are NOT the same game term, never have been. Nothing in essentials has changed that. That's been consistant through the entire life of the game.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No, it's a rage attack. For it to be a use of a rage power, it has to, explicitly, be a specific POWER. Secondary Attacks are not, and have never been, themselves powers.

For example, if you have a ranger attack power that has Attack, a Secondary Attack, and a Tertiary Attack, you did not use three powers. You used one power, but made multiple attacks.

In the case of this, you are using ONE power, but you're making multiple rage attacks.

Different scenario. You're talking about something like TS that grants multiple attacks for one power use, but those are all things that happen IN THE COURSE OF A SINGLE ACTION. Read the rules, when you take an action you have to DO something with that action, its 'Walk', 'Use a Power', 'Drop an Item', etc. So when I use a rage attack or a form attack there's an action and that action is "Use a Power", what else could it be? What power is being used? Why that's easy, the rage/form power! Again what else could it be?

Attack and Power are two different game terms... an attack is an effect of a power. Using a power does not imply making an attack, and making an attack does not imply using a power.

Yes, it does. ALL ATTACKS ARE POWER USES, ALL OF THEM. If its not something else then its MBA or RBA. The few grey areas where it wasn't spelled out perfectly still must be effectively treated as power uses (Bull Rush for instance) or you reach nonsensical rules results. If you make an attack then there IS an underlying power use.

For an example of a power that has a secondary POWER--look at warden's dailies. They give you a permanent effect that gives you access to an at-will power, complete with green title, the At-Will keyword, and all the keywords and details that come with a power.

All THR comes with is a line: "Secondary Attack." No descriptors, no power templating, nothing at all to indicate that it's a distinct power, as opposed to a secondary attack that is the same as every other power that grants a secondary attack. What is the usage-key-word of this 'secondary power'? If it IS a power, and it inherits the keywords of its father power, then it's has the Daily keyword, and you can only use it once per day--that's not right is it? Of course not.

Its still use of the power. Just because some forms and rages use the secondary effect block style doesn't really change anything. This is emphasized by the fact that WotC later reformatted ALL of these things as separate powers when they put them into the Compendium. This made it less confusing, but the concept is the same, to make an attack you MUST use a power. You are confusing 'Use a Power' with 'I am now expending power X', which is a possible CONSEQUENCE of taking an action as 'Use a Power' and selecting that power. However in the case of secondary powers 'usage' is simply not standard. All powers don't need to be daily/encounter/at-will, some are special use rates, like form powers which can be used once within the context of the form. This is simply a place where a specific rule was created to accomplish a result which the general rules didn't cover already.

I agree that using that secondary attack is, technically, using the power, in the sense you are continuing to use that power you've already used. It is not, however, a distinct use of that power. It is not using a new power, it's continuing to use a power you've already used. It does not trigger things that trigger off the use of a power, it does not use the 'Use a Power' action. In other words... if you have a power that has a secondary attack, you 'Use a Power' once, but you 'Attack' as many times as that one power use allows.

Again, this is not necessarily true. There are secondary attacks that are written as later actions. Its hard to support the 'not a power use' argument there.

It WILL trigger any abilities that trigger off attacks as many times as it lets you do so. It will NOT trigger any abilities that trigger off powers, as you only have only used one power during the entire situation.

RAW, there is only one power used. RAW, powers can have secondary attacks. Attack and using a power are NOT the same game term, never have been. Nothing in essentials has changed that. That's been consistant through the entire life of the game.

You're beating on a dead horse here. Nobody ever said they are the same thing. However ALL ATTACKS are derived from a power, and all actions that result in an attack are Use a Power action. Its just true. This is a subtle point but you should really understand it. Nobody is saying that an action can't use a power that IMMEDIATELY causes multiple attacks (primary, secondary, whatever), but when an effect is left as something that the player can invoke later on with a further action (usually these are reactions/interrupts, but not always) then one can legitimately call it a use and in fact if you don't you run into some very strange rules issues.

 

[DracoSuave]

This is emphasized by the fact that WotC later reformatted ALL of these things as separate powers when they put them into the Compendium.

Prove it. Find the errata'd version of that power, and show the MRP of that power, including the power block that it uses, with its keywords. You keep saying it's a power, and the only way to settle it is to show the printing of that power. Someone else did in this thread, and instead it shows as an effect--a secondary attack from the original power use.

You're almost right--attacks are the EFFECTS of using a power. A power's effects are not restricted to a single round, however. You're right--that attack IS the result of using that power. But the power was used in a previous round--you're now using an action the power gives you to use the attack the power gives you. You're not using some other power or a new power unless the effect is to grant you access to a new power.

That's why I said to contrast to the Warden's forms, because they are templated exactly to work the way you think this power is--they ARE daily powers that give you access to a secondary power--but notice how those powers have their own statblock, their own keywords, and using those are distinct powers.

Barbarian rage powers, however, do not follow that template.

But as I said--you claim this power is now granting a secondary power. Show me. Copy that power in here, and show me the Rage keyword on that power.

 

[keterys]

This is emphasized by the fact that WotC later reformatted ALL of these things as separate powers when they put them into the Compendium.

Just for clarity, this isn't true. It is certainly true that someone doing data entry put them into power-like formats, but often incorrectly and in no way as some sort of official like errata. Attempting to use such fake powers is actually a sure route to madness, especially in certain cases like the warlock pact boons, some of which stop working entirely if you do.

This made it less confusing

This is also incorrect. You'll find continual arguments over how to apply per attack and power effects, including from items like this, the Firewind blade, on powers that do multiple melee attacks vs. area/close, ones that have secondary attacks, ones that have secondary powers, etc.