D&D 4th Edition

[Trainz]

There's been a lot of 4th Ed threads lately. That might give Hasbro the wrong idea:


Shhhhh !

 

[Altalazar]

I think people are generally over-pessimistic and over-dramatic about 4E. There may never even be one. 1E lasted for, what, 15 years before 2E, and 2E lasted for about 10 years after that - with 2E really being not all that different from 1E - same basic system.

In that time, all sorts of new systems were created as RPGs finally came out of their infancy - and 3E reflects the much richer tapestry of all of that - skills, feats, and other things beyond the basics. Change it any further and it wouldn't be D&D anymore... I think what we have now is here to stay for quite a long while. Perhaps there will be a 3.75 - but even that is doubtful.

 

[DaveMage]

The only hole in your logic is that there is *not* a lot of 3.x material to have to worry about compatibility if, as anticipated, 4.x will be using the d20 rules. It isn't like the difference between 1ed/2ed and 3.x - the only things that are still useable and needed converting was?!?! Anyone? Anyone? Namely, I'm talking about the vast amount of adventure modules and NPC stats because 3.x rendered any "crunch" from the previous editions useless while "fluff" is, to this day, still useable.

As bad as that statement sounds, there really aren't a lot of 3.x adventures that need to be converted. The WoTC ones aren't what I would consider future "classics," except for CotSQ. The only ones I'd consider are the Necromancer Games ones and the Green Ronin ones - things like the Freeport modules.

Just my $0.02

True, fluff can be used from any edition, but I have a significant number of d20 products (from 3rd party publishers) that are rules-heavy. If 4.0 changes the ruleset significantly, then those products would be much less usable.

Now, if you just treat 3.x as a WotC product line (I do not), then you are (somewhat) correct, as there are "only" about 30 or so products that would need to be updated, so for those who only buy WotC products, then yes, a new 4.0 edition at any time would not be as big a deal.

 

[francisca]

I think people are generally over-pessimistic and over-dramatic about 4E. There may never even be one. 1E lasted for, what, 15 years before 2E, and 2E lasted for about 10 years after that - with 2E really being not all that different from 1E - same basic system.

One aspect of the environment is very different now: Hasbro. Again, the D&D business model is based around selling PHBs. Once that runs out of steam, they will need a way to revitalize sales, or a new business model.

In that time, all sorts of new systems were created as RPGs finally came out of their infancy - and 3E reflects the much richer tapestry of all of that - skills, feats, and other things beyond the basics. Change it any further and it wouldn't be D&D anymore... I think what we have now is here to stay for quite a long while. Perhaps there will be a 3.75 - but even that is doubtful.

I don't think whether D&D remains the "same game" matters to Hasbro. After all, it didn't matter to Wizards. 4E will be minis based, if current trends continue. These things we cling to as D&D, classes, AC, alignment, can all be emulated with other mechanics. Ditch AC for Armor based DR, classes are templates that add powers with experience (like SKR stuff on the wizards site), alignment can easily be an optional system.

Warning: Rampant Speculation follows:
I'll further add to my speculation: Not only will there be no MM, there will be no DMG. Just 1 rule book. This will probably come with a coupon which gives you a discount on box of starter minis which has the stats for the monsters and a flavor pamphlet for the "DM" (if there even is a DM**). One rulebook will ease entry for the younger demographic, as one book for say, $50, is easier to get for your birthday than 3 books for $90-$100. Forget about the fact that they'll pay more in the long run for all of the minis, the CCG market has proven that this model is a good one (for sales). Hasbro needs the younger kids who love the plastic, collectible minis. That's where the money is in this area of the hobby. Whilst alot of old farts (like me) prefer metal, and don't like this current revision cycle, and are unlikely to buy into 4E anyway, so who cares? We're likely to stop playing soon due to life's demands anyway.

**I further predict there will be no DM in 4E (since I'm really going off the deep end anyway). What is one of the hardest parts of getting a game going? Finding a DM who has and is willing to spend the time to do it. Then you hope the DM is good, and has a solid grasp of the rules. Isn't part of 3E's strategy to define everything so the DM has rules to go by, with less arbitrary rulings? Why not eliminate the DM altogether? So, you codify everything, and with each box of minis, you'll get a few "adventures". Maybe we'll even see "adventures in a box" which have a battle map, minis, and a choose-your-own-path style adventure.

Now, I'm not saying any of this is for the better, or that Hasbro is "evil". They have the right to do what they want with the game, they own it. I hope I'm wrong, as "no DM" is heresy to me. I'm just looking at current market trends, what the 9-15 year olds in the FLGS are playing, and speculating. Maybe I need to get funding for a start-up to build an OGL based game which "features" no DM, collectible minis, canned adventures, and beat them to the punch. I dunno. Where's my Moldvay Basic set?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I' with Ranger REG here, at least about the desired release date: not in this decade. Especially because I think that D&D is nice as it is now. I have only two or three things that I would want to see changed, and they aren't enough for a new ruleset, not by a long way. (These are sorcerers as their own class, druids and rangers with spontaneous casting, and something to lower the dependency on magic items)

So when there is to be D&D 4e, it should take it's time - till 2010 - and then do some nice changes all around, but, if this is possible, be largely compatible to 3e (which should not be too difficult, if they keep the classes, the races, and the system of skills and feats, the d20 mechanic, and how ability scores work).

 

[Eltern]

Now by 2006, 2008, 2010, or 2012, whatever it is, when Hasbro wants to churn out 4th edition and it changes EVERYTHING (which I'm not certain will happen, due to the current miniatures providing sales, I hope), ENWorld.COM should buy it There you go! I'd pay, oh, $100, maybe more to get some shares in ENWorld and help them buy it. Don't need M:TG or anything, just D&D

 

[Ranger REG]

Oh, don't be such a drama queen. No one's going to put a gun to your head and make you play 4th Edition, just like nobody made you play editions 0 - 3.5.

Lighten up.

Hey, I didn't think up this vow overnight. Like I said, I have been in this hobby for over 20 years. I love D&D. A year ago, I would be defending 3e when someone complains that they have to invest another $100+ for a whole new lineup of D&D products, apart from they currently collected over the years (1e, 2e, boxed sets, etc.).

But at the end of the day, I feel my interest in this hobby is waning. It started small, but it is gradually growing inside of me. You know what they say, if fun start being a chore, then it's no fun at all. I don't want to feel it, but it's there. But I still want to continue my hobby for as long as I can hold my interest in it, but revising the rules just when I got into a set comfort level with 3e, then fearing they will put out a whole new edition for me to catch up with the rest of the community (I've yet to purchased Unearthed Arcana so I can keep up with the discussions here), it only hurry up the waning process.

Then again, I'm just growing old. I just hope I don't grow out of D&D soon.

 

[bubbalin]

To continue my rampant (and possibly heretical) speculation that 4th edition will not be d20.

Apparently (I wan't around) many people thought 2nd edition was the epitomy of RPG design, yet most people here will say that d20 is a much smoother system... So who's to say that they won't fix some of the issues. I can think of prestige class and feats that seem to be bloating like crazy... (then again they're good for splat sales) Also, there's that whole 'I hate d20 because of classes' movement out there...
Maybe the next system will just have a computer program to create characters and calcualte everything then spit out a character sheet. (hehe, if they're evil they'll put it on their website and make it pay per use) But yeah... I think the GM is here to stay, but who knows what else they'll stick in to make things easier and maybe try to attract new players...

anyway... I'm exhausted so that was probably quite random...

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

I don't think whether D&D remains the "same game" matters to Hasbro.

To continue my rampant (and possibly heretical) speculation that 4th edition will not be d20.

And so what if it isn't? 3.5 is, and the OGL (as I understand it) is pretty much an irrevocable fact of life. Let's say your Lyndon Larouche-esque fantasies of 4th Edition comes true and suddenly there's no DM, no Monster Manual, no groups because everyone's playing their own solo game, and everyone's playing as some kind of Dual-Wielding Ranger-templated Flumph without ability scores. All it would take is some 3rd party publisher to put out a generic "Players Guide" document consisting of the SRD and 3.5 lives on! So big deal, you won't have WotC's IP monsters and the named spells will have no names.

We can and will continue to have the "same game" in perpetuity if we want, and not in the Luddite mode of someone like Diaglo - I mean, with new books and and new fans. Thanks to the OGL, the current version can continue to be a living, thriving entity whether or not Hasbro chooses to shepherd it.

 

[Ranes]

I do not subscribe to the suggestion that there is a trend towards miniatures in the game's ongoing design evolution, despite that untrue statement in the 3.5 PH, which I consider to be nothing more than a clumsy, marketing-led gaffe. I just see the latest edition as coming full circle, as far as emphasis on miniatures goes. I play D&D the way I always have in this respect, with markers and grids to record locations. In order for me to do this, no changes to any rules are required, of course.

I will not speculate on what 4e will be like but I will share a wish list:

Modular software suite for character and campaign management, preferably platform independent, shipped with the relevant book(s), the CDs to also contain PDFs of the books

Errata and additonal material that can be plugged into the aforementioned PDFs and software (subscription/purchase options)

Rules based on a template system available under the OGL

A strong core mechanic (d20-based or otherwise, actually preferably d20, unless you can find me a winning argument for change)

Retention of classes, Vancian magic, levels, divine and arcane magic, xp

Stronger rules for item creation

Nothing 'epic'

Publication preceeded by a long open beta

Scrupulous editing for clarity and consistency

Leather-bound collector's limited edition

Fewer spikes, less comic (I like comics but not in my D&D, strange I know)

I'd like the core rules to cover nothing less than they do now, in 3.5.

But I can wait. 3.x is fine.