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Pathfinder 1E D&D and Pathfinder tied for first place on ICv2 Q3 RPG sales list

Azgulor

Adventurer
Don't know the actual numbers, though I have seen numbers to suggest that the Dungeons & Dragons/D&D brand name is extremely well known in the public eye, outside the RPG industry. Something like 80-90% name recognition to any American. Now more than likely they have the wrong idea about what D&D is. Usually I hear, "Isn't that a video game?" or among the religious community - "that's the devil game...". Still it is highly recognizeable.

As a tabletop game it might mean very little to the public eye, but don't underestimate the name recognition - its extremely well known.

Outside the hobby, nobody has heard of Pathfinder. I know plenty of insular D&D players who have not heard of Pathfinder (their local LGS doesn't sell it and they don't live online, so they don't know about it - except me telling them.)

GP

Negative brand recognition doesn't help the brand (see the Yugo car & New Coke for examples). Similarly, brand recognition without understanding what the product is equates to a brand of limited value. Awareness does not equal brand power -- it can, but it's not a certainty.

Assuming your estimate is correct, has it translated into a huge expansion of the hobby in terms of players? There have been periods of growth as well as periods of decline.

The value of a brand is when it brings along preconceptions: be they entertaining, quality, value, or some other positive metric. When you've translated those preconceptions into customer loyalty, then the brand is increasing it's value even more. When the brand drives a franchise consisting of multiple products & lines of business, you're really cooking (see Halo).

Things like the Castle Ravenloft game might be the start of such an expansion for D&D. Right now, however, D&D as a brand has tremendous power in-hobby and very limited value/power outside of it.

Also, I'm not suggesting Pathfinder is a powerful brand outside of the hobby today. I am suggesting that it could become one over time (so could D&D). Will it happen? No one can say with any certainty today.
 

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Cergorach

The Laughing One
This is why I feel that even if WotC sold off D&D tomorrow it's not a foregone conclusion that the brand's value is THAT significant - at least outside the hobby. If Blizzard bought D&D, brought over the RPG designers, took the mechanics, reworked it to be more WoW-like, & then released the official World of Warcraft RPG they'd probably have a hit on their hands. Even White Wolf's S&S line's adaptation was one of the more popular d20/OGL lines primarily due to the strength of the Warcraft brand.
Oh dear Lord! More WoW like is that even possible? ;-)

WoW might be a stronger brand, but it's only six years old, has currently 12 million subscribers and has had a total of around 35 million subscribers. As per 2006 D&D has had 20 million players and had a revenue of 1 Billion dollars (on books and materials), D&D was at the time 32 years old. You could add Warcraft to the the mix and then the IP is around sixteen years old. What D&D has sold in 32 years, WoW almost makes twice that in a year (if not more). But you have to realize that both brands are aimed at totally different markets, and while there is some overlap, for the most part there are differences. Things like brand loyalty work totally different for WoW and D&D, D&D can depend on Nostalgia, WoW can depend on instant gratification, there are many more. WoW is rather young and is pretty a fluke in the MMO scene, I question whether Blizzard can sustain that for any period of time. The current expansion is a bit risky imho (from what I've seen, but I'm not a WoW player). Would they split their fanbase with a WoW2 or will the pull an EVE Online and keep upgrading their game without ever releasing a separate version 2.

The D&D brand is pretty unique because what it is exactly is different for everyone, that works hand in hand with nostalgia, a pretty powerful force imho, one that keeps folks returning to the brand as bloody lemmings!

While some of the folks posting here disavow brands as having no meaning (to them and their group), to most consumers it does have significant meaning. A brand name is a word that stirs certain emotions, expectations, etc. Only when those things have been significantly compromised (negative emotions, disappointments in expectations) does that brand name loose it's meaning for that customer. There's a reason why so much money is pumped in advertising, a brand name is one of advertisements foundations. Saying that it doesn't work because it doesn't apply to me is a bit... Let's say unfounded.

Let me compare it to computer parts I have a long line of positive experiences with computer hardware from a certain manufacturer (3 hardware generations), that means that I have a preference for that particular brand because it has served me well in the past. It might not have been the cheapest or the fastest, but it was the most dependable. Now I have a fourth generation and while it works, there are issues in my particular implementation, I have this issue with all the hardware of the 4th generation from this brand and I know of others who also have this particular hardware and use it the same way I do, they also have these issues. So when I buy the 5th generation, I'll make sure that similar issues don't afflict my preferred brand or I'll look at a different brand. If all technical things are equal I'll probably go with my preferred brand again. That is what folks call brand loyalty and it is very common, even among RPG consumers. Why else do you think TSR or WW sold so many different worlds...
 

Azgulor

Adventurer
WoW might be a stronger brand, but it's only six years old, has currently 12 million subscribers and has had a total of around 35 million subscribers. As per 2006 D&D has had 20 million players and had a revenue of 1 Billion dollars (on books and materials), D&D was at the time 32 years old.

The numbers you're citing make my point. While different industries, they're thematically similar. Yet Warcraft as a brand has far surpassed D&D in terms of brand recognition. D&D has fiction lines and video games and formerly a line of toys, a cartoon, and a couple of movies -- so where's the breakout brand awareness?

Will Warcraft have staying power? Don't know. Will D&D have staying power? Certainly within the hobby it will. But will the "brand" ever break new ground in the mainstream culture? If the past 32 years are any indication, the gains will be small.

Look at White Wolf's World of Darkness line from several years back. The brand grew rather quickly. It didn't surpass D&D within the RPG industry, but one could argue it had quickly closed the gap on D&D in terms of awareness outside of the industry (novels, TV series, video games, LARP).

Brand obviously matters. However, at this time, the brand disparity is larger within the RPG industry but the gap may be closing, if only a little, based on the ICv2 article. Outside of the industry, the gap is much more narrow & all I'm saying is that if Paizo enjoys continued success, makes the right moves, & has a little luck it's possible that Pathfinder as brand could expand outside the RPG industry. Certainly expanding the brand on par with White Wolf's past endeavors or perhaps even D&D is possible.

Just as it's a better business model for Paizo to control its own destiny by having its own game & setting, it's conceivable that it would also be in Paizo's interests to expand the Pathfinder brand rather than hitching their fortunes to another brand or license (ala Dragon & Dungeon).

Since I don't see any possibility that WotC dumps D&D ever, the wisdom or value of tying themselves to the D&D brand again is (in my view) nothing more than an academic exercise anyway.
 

Cergorach

The Laughing One
The numbers you're citing make my point. While different industries, they're thematically similar. Yet Warcraft as a brand has far surpassed D&D in terms of brand recognition. D&D has fiction lines and video games and formerly a line of toys, a cartoon, and a couple of movies -- so where's the breakout brand awareness?
The cartoon is old and very few of the younger generations will have actually seen it (unless it has seen many more reruns in the US then it has in the EU). And the toys where based on the cartoon (as far as I know). The movies where... Fun for the D&D player (maybe), but were certainly not aimed at the big screen (and if it was it failed miserably). The computer games, the novel lines and even the comic book lines have done far better. Launching D&D among a different hobby crowd. I'm certain that D&D has a deep penetration among the CRPG players, it even has a reasonably big presence among the MMO crowd (DDO is doing better then ever with it's F2P model). Folks that read Fantasy novels will certainly have at least heard of Dragonlance or Drizzt. Same goes for the comic crowd.

Maybe you would want Coca Cola on every tongue in the world, but D&D is not something everyone will enjoy. So why would you want total brand penetration, that 80-90% of the population is aware of the brand is already an enormous bonus. So the folks that are interested in the brand are at least aware of it.

Will Warcraft have staying power? Don't know. Will D&D have staying power? Certainly within the hobby it will. But will the "brand" ever break new ground in the mainstream culture? If the past 32 years are any indication, the gains will be small.
D&D's problem isn't an issue with the brand, but with the implementations to exploit that brand. LotR has had it's own following for years, but only had a real push with the three movies. If D&D had such quality movies, they would be as popular as LotR is now. D&D has epic stories that come close and maybe surpass LotR. So instead of GW making Easterlings, they would be making Bozaks.

The same goes for the DDO MMO, they made a niche MMO game from an obscure D&D setting. Blizzard made a new type of game (for them) from a mediocre setting based on a ten year old IP. They made a great game and a decent setting. The big difference is that most of D&Ds attempts (both by TSR and WotC/Hasbro) has been aimed at getting more players into pnp D&D. That's all fine and good, but there is a limited appeal to pnp RPGing, if they instead aimed at making a good product based on D&D it would have made the brand stronger. WoW wasn't an attempt to sell more Warcraft games, it was an attempt to make a new MMO and they succeeded extremely well. DDO is an attempt to jump on that same bandwagon by effectively doing the same thing only with a different brand, so very few folks had any real reason to change to DDO from WoW. The reason DDO is still alive is becaus it isn't a straight WoW clone but has some unique features and of course the D&D brand (loyalty).

Look at White Wolf's World of Darkness line from several years back. The brand grew rather quickly. It didn't surpass D&D within the RPG industry, but one could argue it had quickly closed the gap on D&D in terms of awareness outside of the industry (novels, TV series, video games, LARP).
Outside of the RPG industry, how many folks remember the Vampire TV series? While the computer games were great, there was no steady stream of support and new games. When CCP releases the WoD MMO that might very well change. The novels never reached the same width of readers as the D&D novels have, only in the LARP communities has reached Vampire an extreme name recognition, that has mutated into a goth/cult like non-LARP thing.

WoD ran for 13 years, getting bigger and bigger, and in one fell swoop alienated most of their customers. The last six years nWoD has pretty much turned the World of Darkness brand into smoke.

Brand obviously matters. However, at this time, the brand disparity is larger within the RPG industry but the gap may be closing, if only a little, based on the ICv2 article. Outside of the industry, the gap is much more narrow & all I'm saying is that if Paizo enjoys continued success, makes the right moves, & has a little luck it's possible that Pathfinder as brand could expand outside the RPG industry. Certainly expanding the brand on par with White Wolf's past endeavors or perhaps even D&D is possible.

Just as it's a better business model for Paizo to control its own destiny by having its own game & setting, it's conceivable that it would also be in Paizo's interests to expand the Pathfinder brand rather than hitching their fortunes to another brand or license (ala Dragon & Dungeon).
Not to be snarky, but why would Paizo loose much sleep about brand recognition outside of the RPG industry? They are still in the growing stages, they just released their very first PF novel. It's going to be a while for Paizo to concern itself with brand recognition outside the RPG industry. D&D is actually shrinking and has learned that fighting within the RPG industry for more market share is a loosing battle, so they have turned to looking for outside profits, they've just done that very badly. Paizo has shown that it can do very good things with the D&D license, but if I was Paizo I don't think I would want the D&D IP, because it's going to be very expensive to buy if available at all. They are still growing with their own IP, so why would they even want to buy a declining rival IP? The only reason I can think of is emotional attachments, and the money that had to exchange hands would be more then emotional attachments are worth (imho). Maybe in a decade if Paizo is really big, and D&D has become really small. They could do interesting things with the D&D IPs (Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Darksun, Planescape, Birthright, Spell Jammer, etc.)...

Since I don't see any possibility that WotC dumps D&D ever, the wisdom or value of tying themselves to the D&D brand again is (in my view) nothing more than an academic exercise anyway.
WotC has shown that it is perfectly capable of dumping IPs, look at Legend of the Five Rings, Hexa-sometghing and Dream-something, and more recent the Star Wars RPG and miniature games. No, the only one that's really attached to IPs is Hasbro (take GI JOE and Transformers as an example). But Hasbro could not see D&D as a valuable enough IP to put it in the freezer, it could easily be picked up by others in the industry (like Mongoose), companies new to the industry, or companies in other industries looking to buy up ready made IPs for 'cheap' (like CCP did with WW).
 

Azgulor

Adventurer
Not to be snarky, but why would Paizo loose much sleep about brand recognition outside of the RPG industry?

I only suggested such a possibility in response to the idea that if the D&D were available to be scooped up by Paizo, they should immediately dump or re-brand Pathfinder as D&D. Or that in some weird scenario Paizo would hitch their wagon to a future 5e. I was merely making the case that while the D&D brand is not so recognizable outside of the RPG hobby that a Pathfinder brand couldn't be just as viable at some point in the future. Nothing more.

The examples I cited were attempts by D&D's owners to make D&D more mainstream and that the gains, to date, have been relatively small. Thus the brand outside the hobby is not as valuable as a more mainstream brand (like Halo or Warcraft or Coke), that's all. Outside of the RPG hobby, D&D ain't an 800 lb. gorilla. It's at least a possibility that another RPG brand (if you don't like Pathfinder, let's go with Warhammer) could have larger mainstream recognition than D&D.


WotC has shown that it is perfectly capable of dumping IPs, look at Legend of the Five Rings, Hexa-sometghing and Dream-something, and more recent the Star Wars RPG and miniature games. No, the only one that's really attached to IPs is Hasbro (take GI JOE and Transformers as an example). But Hasbro could not see D&D as a valuable enough IP to put it in the freezer, it could easily be picked up by others in the industry (like Mongoose), companies new to the industry, or companies in other industries looking to buy up ready made IPs for 'cheap' (like CCP did with WW).

Not to be snarky (truly), but why would WotC dump an IP with a brand as valuable as D&D? If D&D as a brand and IP is truly as valuable as you've suggested (and it may be), they'd be idiots to do this. I don't think they're idiots & therefore I don't see a snowball's chance in hell that this will occur.
 

deinol

First Post
WotC has shown that it is perfectly capable of dumping IPs, look at Legend of the Five Rings

Did I miss something? As far as I know Legend of the Five Rings has always been owned by AEG. Yes, 3.0 Oriental Adventures licensed the setting as a default oriental setting, but every other book for L5R has been produced by AEG.

It is true that WotC can and will dump IP, but it would take a major slump for it to become that worthless. Paizo may be doing well, but Wizards is still making good money off the D&D brand.
 

fanboy2000

Adventurer
Did I miss something? As far as I know Legend of the Five Rings has always been owned by AEG. Yes, 3.0 Oriental Adventures licensed the setting as a default oriental setting, but every other book for L5R has been produced by AEG.
Wizards bought L5R from AEG quite a while ago (pre-3e, IIRC) and re-licenced it back to AEG for the CCG. (IIRC, some of the LFR novels have the Wizard's imprint.) However, they sold it back to AEG before 3.0 Oriental Adventures was published. AEG then published a bunch of dual stat books for the game.

So, over the life of the IP, L5R has been owned by AEG the longest. And AEG originated the property. And they own it now. But Wizards owned it for a few years in the middle. Yeah, it's weird.

I don't know of any other IP Wizards has outright sold. Hasbro sold the Atari IP a while back, but that's the only IP I'm aware of that Hasbro's sold.
 

Cergorach

The Laughing One
WotC isn't at the at the wheel anymore, Hasbro is, and Hasbro has whole different ideas about what is profitable and what is not. Sales that Paizo would find acceptable, Hasbro would find reason to reorganize WotC or even close down lines. When I say dump, i don't neccesarily mean sell, it could just mean not produce anything for a long time. You can' tell me that SW was doing so badly by any other publishers standards. Hasbro/Kenner stopped producing Star Wars action figures for decades, while the property was very valuable. The same goes for GI Joe and Transformer toys. WotC might very well have their own ideas but they are bound to the whims of the their corporate overlords who see things very differently from those in the RPG industry. DnD might very well be a brand Hasbro doesn't find all that valuable, I am not famíloar enough with the more vague Hasbro brands...
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
I don't know why people insist Hasbro is on the verge of selling D&D all time. Well, other than wishful thinking.

Companies do not get rich by selling intellectual properties.

Sure, if they were not making a lot of money, they might put D&D into a dormant state, but I see no signs of them doing so. DDI 4E, and a solid line of products do not look like a company that is on the verge of going down the drain. Sure, they are probably not making a ton of money, but there is cash flow, and I assume they are not bleeding rivers of red, the main thing that would attract Hasbro's attention.

I really think the higher-ups at Hasbro are more on the lines of if it ain't broke, don't fix it or waste a lot of time worrying about it.

Sure the situation could come up when Hasbro might have to decide what to do with the brand, but that time is not now.

And as a final point, would Paizo even actually have the resources to buy the D&D IP? I rather doubt it.
 

Keefe the Thief

Adventurer
WotC isn't at the at the wheel anymore, Hasbro is, and Hasbro has whole different ideas about what is profitable and what is not. Sales that Paizo would find acceptable, Hasbro would find reason to reorganize WotC or even close down lines. When I say dump, i don't neccesarily mean sell, it could just mean not produce anything for a long time. You can' tell me that SW was doing so badly by any other publishers standards. Hasbro/Kenner stopped producing Star Wars action figures for decades, while the property was very valuable. The same goes for GI Joe and Transformer toys. WotC might very well have their own ideas but they are bound to the whims of the their corporate overlords who see things very differently from those in the RPG industry. DnD might very well be a brand Hasbro doesn't find all that valuable, I am not famíloar enough with the more vague Hasbro brands...

Using "corporate overlords" unironically should be worth an experience point from all of us, i think.
 

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