Pathfinder 1E D&D and Pathfinder tied for first place on ICv2 Q3 RPG sales list

[Dice4Hire]

Also note this has been in the plans for a long time, it not a knee jerk reaction to compete with Essentials, but curiously follows a similar path.

I'm not sure how curious it is. It seems an obvious move for a company to make.

Of course, a lot of the smaller companies do not have the resources to do this, and that limits how many of these starter sets are out there.

I do find myself wondering how Paizo will sell their Red Book. When I was in the states recently, I did not see anything Paizo outside of game stores. I don't think trying to sell a pdf of that kind of book will be very successful.

 

[MrGrenadine]

do find myself wondering how Paizo will sell their Red Book. When I was in the states recently, I did not see anything Paizo outside of game stores. I don't think trying to sell a pdf of that kind of book will be very successful.

I play 4e both and Pathfinder, and it seems to me that Pathfinder fans will help get the word out because they love of the game--me included. Word of mouth can be very powerful, and I talk up Pathfinder as much as I can, in part because it doesn't have the name recognition of D&D, and...well, it should as far as I'm concerned.

So after being disappointed with the new WotC Red Box, (can't quite figure out which rule set its supposed to use--4e, Essentials, or a third variant), I'll be purchasing the Paizo boxes (Oh, I hope they're in boxes!) for my son, my nephew, and myself.

 

[Mercurius]

vitriol

I'm sorry you're so angry, but I won't get into this anymore with you, Azgulor, except to address one outright lie on your part. I am curious about what you mean by my supposed "large # of pro-WotC threads." The only thing I can think of that could at all be viewed as "pro-WotC' was this thread. I also wrote a variety of threads and posts in which I was expressing an opinion that 4E, like Pathfinder and other editions of D&D, is a valid, real form of D&D. But a "large # of pro-WotC threads"? Hardly. Furthermore, if you read my posts you will realize that if I am pro-WotC, I am also pro-Paizo.

This is exactly the type of tactic I was calling you out on and which you turned around and enacted on me: trying to push someone into an oppositional, pro-WotC/4E stance, even when they don't feel strongly either way (such as myself), and then outright lying about what I have said or written in the past.

Though I have no idea on level cut-off, Paizo is currently (just started) working on their own 'red box' - don't know if it will be boxed edition or not, a kind of Pathfinder Basic. Talk is something like 5th or 6th level, limited spell list, limited feat list, removal of odd feats, and a starter adventure all in a single book.

The point is Paizo might just produce what WotC's 'red box' should have been, targetting the same potential customers at the same box stores. Paizo has announced this will be a product for next year.

Also note this has been in the plans for a long time, it not a knee jerk reaction to compete with Essentials, but curiously follows a similar path.

Again not with D&D brand recognition, but doing the right kind of entry game could do wonders with taking Pathfinder out of the 'known only to the 3x generation' and make it larger known RPG brand.

I look forward to seeing what they come up with (and will probably buy it). As I said in my post above, I really like what I have seen from Paizo and they seem to really embody a company run by gamers for gamers. I don't mean to bag on WotC, but something seems lost in the shuffle, but more on this in another thread that I'd like to start.

I think Pathfinder especially could benefit from this sort of simple, core game and set because of the daunting nature of the Pathfinder Rule Book to a newbie (almost six hundred pages!). It seems that Paizo's initial intention was not to try to market to newbies, but to 3.5 players and possibly lapsed players; now that they are more successful than even they could have imagined, they're going for more. I do admire this and wish them well. I still think, however, that the overall health of the hobby is largely dependent upon how D&D does.

 

[Cergorach]

While the top 5 is excellent news for Paizo, it confirms the fears I had when 4E was released. Not only splitting the 3.5E crowd right down the middle, but also alienating players altogether from the RPG industry.

Dungeons & Dragons is a strong brand name, the owner needs to really, really mess things up before that seriously changes. IMHO WotC/HASBRO has been seriously messing up since the end days of 3.5E, even before 4E was announced.

When I read the top 5 I also had my doubts (the top 5 didn't surprise me), I looked at the core books on Amazon.com and their position in the sales list. Paizo core books score consistently higher in those charts and imho by a huge margin. So the top 5 might very much be right, Lisa confirming it might be seen as a sales 'trick', but I don't think it is.

In my experience the end of 3.5E resulted in five things:
1.) Folks stopped playing RPGs all together
2.) Folks moved on to other (unrelated) systems
3.) Folks stayed with D&D 3.5E
4.) Folks moved to Pathfinder
4.) Folks moved to D&D 4E

Pathfinder was popular with folks that wanted more compatibility with 3.5E, when it became clear that PF wasn't as compatible as a lot of folks expected, an imho significant part of the potential PF crowd either moved back to 3.5E, took the plunge into 4E, or left altogether. Since then PF has been steadily growing.

D&D 4E on the other hand had a huge influx of players that stayed loyal to the brand name. While the 4E mechanics where far more efficient then 3.5E mechanics (and probably more efficient then the PF mechanics), it eventually became apparent that D&D 4E was lacking something important (imho it's presentation). So more and more folks are dropping out of D&D4E, brand loyalty only goes so far (for me it went two years). A lot are driven to PF because that's the RPG closest to D&D, that isn't D&D 4E, others move to other systems or leave the hobby entirely. And imho it seems that whatever WotC/Hasbro does, it doesn't get enough new blood to replace (or grow) the amount of old blood they loose.

I would say that D&D 4E is spiraling into oblivion, not because PF is so much bigger then D&D, it's because of who owns D&D. What Paizo find acceptable sales numbers/profits and what WotC/HASBRO finds acceptable are wholly different things. So if D&D doesn't hit expected sales/profit numbers (and imho it isn't soon), then Hasbro will cut the whole branch. The current changing of the publication method indicates to me that someone at WotC/HASRO has said "Things need to change and soon!", they did and imho it isn't/won't get them the desired results. 4E tried to attract a new kind of D&D player, it succeeded in that, but at the same time it lost a lot of old D&D players. At face value that isn't a problem, lot's of companies do that and survive perfectly (GW is an excellent example). IMHO the problem is that they lost way more DMs then they gained, and DMs are generally the driving force behind a property, the are generally the folks that buy a lot of product (if not all the product). You might gain a load of new players, but if there aren't enough DMs, that's a problem.

I make a distinction between Player (pure consumer) and DM (both consumer and content provider) because it is an important and often overlooked part of the business. There is of course overlap, but what I'm aiming at is the MMO model that D&D 4E seemed to follow, and all MMO players are pure consumers. PnP RPGs always had to have a good balance between players and DMs and 4E seemed a lot more aimed at attracting new (MMO) players then attracting DMs. In my particular case I was excited at the mechanical aspect of 4E and had ideas for a campaign, bought everyone from my lapsed 3.5E group 4E PHBs got everyone excited, but 4E just couldn't get me excited at implementing a 4E campaign (mostly because they couldn't get me excited for opening any of their books). I even tried to convert one of Paizo's Adventure paths to 4E (Runelords) but the adventure excited me more then the 4E mechanics, it eventually burned me out on RPGs entirely. I briefly considered moving to PF but buying everyone PF rulebooks was atleast twice as expensive as the PHBs was and at the time didn't fit in my financial situation (and I also lacked a lot of motivation).

I always found PF interesting because they used the OGL and stuck a lot closer to 3.5E then 4E ever did. But that didn't really translate to PF sales, mostly because local distributors don't carry, don't carry a lot, or very sporadic PF products.

In the Netherlands there are two RPG distributors (as far as I know), PS-games and Boosterbox. In the 3.5E days PS-games carried some of the adventure path adventures, mostly due to Paizo also publishing Dungeon and Dragon. PS-games only carried the first 6-7 adventure path adventures, now it doesn't carry any PF products. Boosterbox only carries PF products since about a year or so, only the five core products and it only does so infrequently (supply is very bad). Of those five products only two have been actually available and everything (except the bestiary) is now 'on order'. If I compare that of the availability of 4E books, that is very bad. Retailers tend to be reluctant to order overseas because that tends to be either extra expensive, takes a while or is difficult due to language barriers (while English isn't a problem for a lot of folks, often German or French is).

As Dutch roleplayers we've learned to buy books online and in other countries, Amazon.de or Amazon.co.uk, or even in the US. But generally ordering it the US (directly from Paizo) is way to expensive due to shipping and custom fees. So when something is generally more difficult/expensive to get, it generally gets bought a lot less. I know were only a tiny country with only 17 million souls, with a smaller market for English language RPGs (compared to the US or UK), but we are here and if given the opportunity we would buy. Currently I can only view Paizo as a pure US aimed company and WotC as a globally aimed company. Example: If I order the PF core book from Paizo direct it costs me $94.70 including shipping, that's ~€71, add 6% VAT (on books) and a €12,50 customs fee, that book costs me ~€88. Amazon.de asks €36 including shipping. A subscription might save a few euros on the total price (but it does nothing for shipping) and add a free pdf, it still costs 2.3 times as much to buy from Paizo direct, Paizo might consider an European webstore that ships from an EU country (something like Germany for example).

As another example, I have almost all 3(.5)E and 4E products, compare that to six pre Pathfinder and the two post Pathfinder (non D&D) Paizo products... I'll be stopping with buying 4E books, due to D&D 4E not living up to my expectations and due to diminishing bookshelf space, Paizo still does have a space on the limited bookshelf space ;-)

I would like to point out that WotC also has more diversity in their D&D products, things Paizo doesn't have. Things like software (DDI), miniatures, and boardgames. Paizo is now also (finally) entering the PF novel market. On the other hand Paizo has pdfs, a direct channel for their products and they sell other manufacturers products through their webstore.

Edit:
I am already complaining about the size of the PHB (and the current Red Box isn't what I expected), the PF core book has 80%+ more pages then the 4E PHB, the size of such rulebooks scares off new players. Even more so then price I expect. Something the size and price of an adventure path or player companion books might be a lot more attractive to new players (and I would feel a lot less guilty about hitting players with the book ;-)

 

[I'm A Banana]

My main contention, which I'm happy to be wrong about, is that if D&D tanks it is not good for Pathfinder or the hobby as a whole. Why? Because it becomes isolated from getting new players, it becomes even more ghetto-ified than it already is.

I think you're giving waaaaaaay too much weight to brand loyalty. Clearly, the people that Pathfinder is attracting to the hobby don't care if it's not called "D&D." It's the play experience they're after. It's the groups they love to play with. It's the game itself, not the name slapped on it, that is the thing.

The same is pretty true with those who play 4e. I don't think there's many people just playing it because it says "D&D" on the cover. I think it's the kind of game people like to play, so they're playing it.

Pathfinder has just as much ability to attract newbs to the hobby as D&D4 does. White Wolf certainly did in their heyday, too. If "D&D" suffers, all that happens is that D&D suffers. If Coke takes a stumble, Pepsi and Dr. Pepper still do fine.

"D&D" as a logo has some value, but you're really over-estimating it.

 

[gamerprinter]

I'm not sure how curious it is. It seems an obvious move for a company to make.

Of course, a lot of the smaller companies do not have the resources to do this, and that limits how many of these starter sets are out there.

I do find myself wondering how Paizo will sell their Red Book. When I was in the states recently, I did not see anything Paizo outside of game stores. I don't think trying to sell a pdf of that kind of book will be very successful.

I think this only a recent thing, or since Pathfinder hit book form. The game stores always had their APs, but Paizo didn't produce a book until Pathfinder. Right away, however, Paizo got their 'book' into the normal distribution market - big box stores. So really they've in the market where a 'red box' game could go for only the last year.

You can find PF at Walmart, B&N, and a few other box stores, but you wouldn't have found any Paizo product before two years ago and only gradually so. Right now they have the real penetration they didn't have before.

James Jacobs & Erik Mona have mentioned the problem with APs is they are thin books with no titles on spines, so unless marketed with front face showing, their AP products won't see well in a box store as to front face them takes up too much space. Books like the Core Rulebook has a spine title and can be displayed spines out. So those non-game store places selling Core books don't sell the APs.

Pathfinder Basics or 'red box' would sell well in those markets. Whether they can outsell Essentials, who knows?

GP

PS: not that a PDF wouldn't be made out of a Pathfinder Basic game, it would be designed as a hard product for the box stores, not as a PDF, at least not those outside of their subscriber base. Its not intended to be a PDF product as its main form.

 

[Azgulor]

Dungeons & Dragons is a strong brand name, the owner needs to really, really mess things up before that seriously changes. IMHO WotC/HASBRO has been seriously messing up since the end days of 3.5E, even before 4E was announced.

Interesting post. I do question how strong the D&D brand name truly is, however. Within the RPG hobby, of course, it's huge but while the public at large might recognize the term Dungeons & Dragons, most non-RPGers I've met over the years really have no idea what the game entails. Similarly, I think DragonLance & Forgotten Realms may actually have larger brand recognition outside of the RPG hobby community b/c of the fiction lines. I think the recent adoption of Dungeons & Dragons on the fiction books reflects that fact.

Even looking at the video games based off of D&D (regardless of edition) - they're known by Neverwinter Nights or Baldur's Gate much more than as D&D: <name of video game>. And let's face it, World of Warcraft has much larger brand recognition than D&D.

This is why I feel that even if WotC sold off D&D tomorrow it's not a foregone conclusion that the brand's value is THAT significant - at least outside the hobby. If Blizzard bought D&D, brought over the RPG designers, took the mechanics, reworked it to be more WoW-like, & then released the official World of Warcraft RPG they'd probably have a hit on their hands. Even White Wolf's S&S line's adaptation was one of the more popular d20/OGL lines primarily due to the strength of the Warcraft brand.

Basically, you've got a video game that was inspired by a D&D campaign that grew from a no-name brand into one of the dominant brands in the video game industry. A precedent exists.

Similarly, while the gulf between D&D & Pathfinder brands remains large within the hobby, outside of it I think the gap is much smaller. There is now the Pathfinder Tales line in print & web fiction -- the brand is expanding. To what degree remains to be seen. If we ever see a Pathfinder video game, I'm betting heavily that Pathfinder-something-or-other will be prominently displayed.

 

[gamerprinter]

Don't know the actual numbers, though I have seen numbers to suggest that the Dungeons & Dragons/D&D brand name is extremely well known in the public eye, outside the RPG industry. Something like 80-90% name recognition to any American. Now more than likely they have the wrong idea about what D&D is. Usually I hear, "Isn't that a video game?" or among the religious community - "that's the devil game...". Still it is highly recognizeable.

As a tabletop game it might mean very little to the public eye, but don't underestimate the name recognition - its extremely well known.

Outside the hobby, nobody has heard of Pathfinder. I know plenty of insular D&D players who have not heard of Pathfinder (their local LGS doesn't sell it and they don't live online, so they don't know about it - except me telling them.)

GP

 

[Wicht]

James Jacobs & Erik Mona have mentioned the problem with APs is they are thin books with no titles on spines, so unless marketed with front face showing, their AP products won't see well in a box store as to front face them takes up too much space. Books like the Core Rulebook has a spine title and can be displayed spines out. So those non-game store places selling Core books don't sell the APs.

Nit: The APs are perfect bound with a spine and a title one the spine. Its the modules and the Companion line with no spines that I believe were mentioned.

 

[gamerprinter]

Ah, misread their post on that then. Call me evil , but I buy PF books, not APs, so I don't really know what they look like - our group mostly home-brews everything adenture/campaign wise. We've bought some 3x adventures, but most of our adventure buying was during 2e and earlier.

GP