D&D and Poker: Not So Different

[talien]

Check out this article: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1538649,00.html

Why the parental aiding and abetting? It's not just that poker in the home keeps kids off the unpredictable streets. Many parents are saying that their kids get real-life lessons from playing poker with one another. Keeping track of the odds and the cards can help sharpen math skills without the kids even knowing it. And perhaps more important for teenage boys, who studies show lag in the development of their emotional intelligence, poker provides personal interaction. The game's central task--reading faces and psyching out opponents--can boost their EQ in ways that many other typical teenage activities do not. "As long as the money doesn't get out of hand, I think it's positive," says Renee. "They're building friendships. And I think it's teaching them some skills too."

Many experts agree with her. In their classic 1944 book, Theory of Games and Economic Behavior, John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern built a mathematical model of economic and social organization--creating the foundations of modern game theory--by studying strategy games like poker. Poker is like life, the argument goes, a battlefield where the players constantly try to assess risks and guess one another's next moves. More recently, Anthony Cabot, a leading gaming-law attorney who represents online and casino operators, co-authored a paper for the Thomas M. Cooley Law Review linking poker to other games in history, like jousting, that have motivated young men to increase their combat skills. He wrote that even Islam, which prohibits gambling, has made exceptions for betting on horse races as a way to spur, as it were, youths to become better horsemen and warriors. Some educators leverage the game's current popularity to sneak in their lessons. Emory University math professor Ronald Gould, for example, teaches his freshmen students basic concepts of probability using five-card stud, or for more challenging computations, a seven-card game like Texas Hold 'Em.

Sound like any games we know?

 

[Vrecknidj]

Sure does. I've been playing since 1980. My 17-year-old son has been playing since he was about 11 (we had fun playing a D&D-like, heavy-on-the-imagination alternative from the time he was about 6). My 12-year-old loves d20 Modern.

In both cases, I play when the kids have their friends over. I know all of my 17-year-old's friends. Heck, one of them is going into the Marines next year, and, honestly, seeing him go will be more like seeing my son go, or seeing a friend go, than it will be like just any other 18-year-old.

And, it's not like I'm watching the kids like a hawk--they like the game, they ilke having me play.

But, to the other point, most definitely does D&D serve them like the article mentions poker serves others. These kids are all quite bright, and while I don't attribute their intelligence to being D&D players (rather, the reverse is probably true), playing D&D has helped them hone their analytical skills, their ability to decipher hidden meanings behind the obvious, and to negotiate at an adult level.

Dave

 

[Wik]

It doesn't surprise me at all. In fact, as an avid poker player, I find that playing in a game of hold 'em involves me just as much as playing in a D&D game. There's a lot going on - looking for tells, trying to figure out what YOUR tells are (last week, I had pocket jacks in my hand and a jack and two threes came up on the table; I bet innocently like I always do, and everyone folded.... I was so ticked off!), and praying to the poker gods for a better hand than 3/8 off-suit.

I always got a little annoyed with parents who didn't want their 17 or 18 year olds gambling at Poker... I mean, we play two-dollar games, once every two weeks, and two games per night. At most, the kid loses four bucks. I don't think it's really going to make a gambler of them, you know?

 

[fusangite]

Some good points are raised here but they are part of a larger PR campaign funded by the gambling industry which has picked up on the psych/math skills argument in the past two years and is running with it.

The fact is that D&D is superior to poker because it doesn't produce addicts and gambling industry marks.

 

[jezter6]

The fact is that D&D is superior to poker because it doesn't produce addicts and gambling industry marks.

You think D&D isn't addictive? Have you read posts on these boards from gamers? While not quite as addictive as poker (my assumption because there is no 'winning' in D&D, and even so, there's no monitary payout for being a good gamer), I think our hobby is not without some scrutiny.

Without those pioneers of the industry some 30 odd years ago, we wouldn't have things like Magic cards (addiction to many, even under the age of 15), Everquest (addictive to all ages), and the like.

Now, go out and buy another RPG supplement like the industry wants you to. If this wasn't so addictive, we wouldn't need more than core to play.


(not trying to be snarky, and if it comes out that way, I apologize in advance)

 

[Wik]

I would argue that D&D is actually *more* addictive than poker, in that it grabs the attention of it's players more than poker does, on average.

While there are gambling addicts, poker is usually not their game of choice - it's usually blackjack, or slots (poker takes too long for the payout - since a good poker player, pretty much by definition, will lose more hands than he will win and isn't out for that big "Jackpot").

Millions of people play poker, but they probably only play once every month, if that. And when they're not playing, they're most likely not thinking about playing.

Now, in D&D, we work under the assumption that you play more than once a month. If you're a GM, you definately think about the game daily. If you're like me, you read a lot of D&D-related material. While I will talk about poker at work more than D&D, that's only because poker is a lot less "nerdy".

And players can be just as bad. My brother JUST came into my room, hoping to discuss whether or not he could change his dragon shaman's focus from copper dragon to black dragon for background reasons.... he'd been thinking about it for the better part of the day.

Finally, I'd be willing to bet that, even though there are more poker players in the world than D&D players, that if you checked online, you'd find more D&D forums over poker. More D&D websites over poker. And it's a fact that there are more computer games, TV shows, movies, and what-have-you inspired by hardcore D&D fans over Poker. So, while Poker can occasionally be addictive, D&D (or RPGs, to be more accurate), can become a way of life.

 

[pogre]

Didn't the folks who run Magic the Gathering part of WOTC blame the boom in Texas Hold'em for stealing away players?

Now that poker is slowing down a bit I wonder what those folks are playing?

 

[Wik]

Didn't the folks who run Magic the Gathering part of WOTC blame the boom in Texas Hold'em for stealing away players?

Now that poker is slowing down a bit I wonder what those folks are playing?

Poker is slowing down? News to me.

I mean, I'm entering a tournie in, like, february. And just last week, I heard two guys on the bus talking about how they had won seats (after playing poker online) to a tournament in Toronto. I think the craze is still going on strong.

 

[SWBaxter]

trying to figure out what YOUR tells are (last week, I had pocket jacks in my hand and a jack and two threes came up on the table; I bet innocently like I always do, and everyone folded.... I was so ticked off!)

That's not a matter of tells so much as there being very few cards left to give anyone a hand that can call even an innocent bet. Slowplaying is often a dumb thing to do, but a flopped boat is the exception that proves the rule.

I'd say that the major difference between poker and D&D from the standpoint of that article is the competitive aspect. In poker, you win by being better than everybody else - being better at math, better at reading people, better at understanding your own strengths and weaknesses, etc. People who don't get better at poker eventually get left behind. D&D doesn't have the same competitive pressure, those who use D&D to significantly improve their math skills (for example) do so because they want to, rather than because they have to.

 

[pogre]

Poker is slowing down? News to me.

I mean, I'm entering a tournie in, like, february. And just last week, I heard two guys on the bus talking about how they had won seats (after playing poker online) to a tournament in Toronto. I think the craze is still going on strong.

The tournaments are picking up steam. However, sales of poker-related books, the world series of poker episodes ratings on ESPN, and sales of other poker-related items are down. In other words, folks who are in the hobby are in for the most part. Poker is less mainstream than it was say a year ago. The number of hardcore players is increasing, but the number of casual players is slowly going down.

I have a friend who runs an import business who used to bring in tons of poker chips, poker tables, and other knick-knacks - I got my information from him.

I guess that's why I would argue the craze is slowing down.