D&D Armageddon - Blood Wars End, Sigil Falls to Seige

[Wrahn]

My biggest problem with the idea is the fact the Blood War ended because someone found out the Good Gods manipulated the Fiends. All I have to say is duh. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see whom the Blood War favors. It doesn’t matter how it started the demons and devils will fight because the other side exists. To stop the Blood War you would need to change their very nature.

I would suggest that the “discovery” that the Blood Wars were started by the good gods to be a ruse. What is really happening is that someone, Perhaps the General of Gehenna, perhaps someone else, has created an artifact, powered by a god of peace, trapped inside. I would further suggest that the Demons and Devils do not side with each other, but pretty much leave each other alone. So you would not have one enemy, but two and a third enemy manipulating the first two.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

What about this?

The Blood War wasn't started by the Good powers, but was the natural result of Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil interacting. However, the major powers on both sides of the conflict suddenly begin working together, believing that they can conquer the cosmos by overthrowing Sigil and spreading Evil to all places and planes. They begin worshipping the Lady, trying to cause her to be cast out of Sigil.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work - the Lady reaches across dimensions and flays demons and devils alike. In the ensuing disruption, the forces of Good attack. They had planted the idea of worshipping the Lady as a way to use her as a weapon. The combined might of the Greater Gods of Good shields their armies from the Lady of Pain while they sweep through the Abyss, causing a weakening of Evil through the planes. The Wheel becomes so unbalanced that it's in danger of collapsing, destroying the Multiverse and granting true victory to Good, which will then create a cosmos in its own image.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

So the Lady is an unbeatable force, an all knowing entity with every strength and no weaknesses. She knows when someone enters the city with pocket lint. Basically to defeat her you have to destroy reality so it would take her with it. No wonder I never liked Planescape. Out of curiosity, if you entered the city with the Annulus inside a portable hole would she detect the Annulus or just the portable hole. The Annulus is inside a pocket dimension and so really isn't entering Sigil until it is taken out of the bag and by that time it is already inside and through the portals. No wait, let me guess... she'd immediately sense it and put the Annulus holder into one of her mazes. Since she is all knowing she'd no doubt know exactlly what the annulus is.

Sorry for the rant, I've never liked the idea of omnipotent entities in RPGs.

Shemeska, you seem to be the sage on Planescape. How do you beat the Lady?

There is nothing wrong with the rules. Its the rabid fanboys that are the real terror of DnD. Kill her in whatever manner you want to. Its just a GAME and its a GAME whose rules are finally decided by you the DM.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

My biggest problem with the idea is the fact the Blood War ended because someone found out the Good Gods manipulated the Fiends. All I have to say is duh. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see whom the Blood War favors. It doesn’t matter how it started the demons and devils will fight because the other side exists. To stop the Blood War you would need to change their very nature.

I would suggest that the “discovery” that the Blood Wars were started by the good gods to be a ruse. What is really happening is that someone, Perhaps the General of Gehenna, perhaps someone else, has created an artifact, powered by a god of peace, trapped inside. I would further suggest that the Demons and Devils do not side with each other, but pretty much leave each other alone. So you would not have one enemy, but two and a third enemy manipulating the first two.

I agree. The "discovery" is a bit weak. What I like is some ideas from Planescape that were vaguely hinted at. What if the Blood Wars were run started and manipulated by the Yugs as training. They started it in the ancient past to create the ultimate armies of evil to use to conquer the multiverse.

Take this to its logical next step and say that day has finally come. The Yugs have decided that the Demons and Devils have finally evolved to the point where the Yugs think they can conquer everything with them.

So using ancient pacts and powers long forgotten but instilled in all demons and devils the Yugs bring them under control (more or less) and weld them into a huge army of evil that they unleash on the cosmos.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

So using ancient pacts and powers long forgotten but instilled in all demons and devils the Yugs bring them under control (more or less) and weld them into a huge army of evil that they unleash on the cosmos.

Better yet, what if the Archfiends had grown beyond the power of the Yugs to control? They'd find their own armies leaving the Abyss and the Nine Hells in droves. Naturally they'd take some offense to this and might even side with the forces of good to destroy those who would deprive them of their servitors.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Better yet, what if the Archfiends had grown beyond the power of the Yugs to control? They'd find their own armies leaving the Abyss and the Nine Hells in droves. Naturally they'd take some offense to this and might even side with the forces of good to destroy those who would deprive them of their servitors.

That would work. Its a common item in fiction for evil (or good even) to create a subject creature that ends up being too powerful for the creator to control in the end.

What if when the Yugs decide to exert control the Demons and Devils revolt and slaughter the Yugs. Then filled with the bloodjust of having just destroyed an entire lower planes race they continue their frenzied assaults on the rest of creation. They are not really working together but both are on the rampage (while fighting each other a bit at the same time) and the resulting chaos and destruction is more than the forces of good can really handle.

 

[Orius]

So the Demons and Devils are byproducts of the Yugoloth's quest to purify themselves? Not too shabby I suppose. I guess I still like the biblical view of devils. The Nine Hells is obviously taken from Dante's Inferno and basically I just swap the name of Lucifer out for Asmodeus (though I don't have Asmodeus buried up to his waist in ice eating the flesh of Judas and two other betrayers whose names escape me right now). IMC I make Asmodeus a former celestial who was cast out of paradise by The Creator prior to the creation of the prime. The devils are those celestials that sided with Asmodeus and demons are the celestials that didn't chose a side.

It depends on what source you want to use. The idea of the other fiends being creations of the baernaloths was introduced in Hellbound. Presumably that includes Asmodeus, who wasn't even mentioned in that set.

However, the later 2e product A Guide to Hell presents Asmodeus as a fallen entity of great evil that predates the gods or something like that. The Manual of the Planes sort of touches on both points, generally presenting Asmo as an archdevil, while hinting that there might be more to him than is generally known.

So really, it's up to the DM. Myself, I use Asmo as a proto-god that embodies lawful evil.

 

[Orius]

I agree. The "discovery" is a bit weak. What I like is some ideas from Planescape that were vaguely hinted at. What if the Blood Wars were run started and manipulated by the Yugs as training. They started it in the ancient past to create the ultimate armies of evil to use to conquer the multiverse.

Take this to its logical next step and say that day has finally come. The Yugs have decided that the Demons and Devils have finally evolved to the point where the Yugs think they can conquer everything with them.

So using ancient pacts and powers long forgotten but instilled in all demons and devils the Yugs bring them under control (more or less) and weld them into a huge army of evil that they unleash on the cosmos.

IIRC, something like that was the metaplot behind Hellbound. The yugoloths manipulate the Blood War out of some long-range master plan of evil. The events in Hellbound involved stripping the fiends of their ability to teleport as a precusor to this. Basically there was this creature the yugoloths created that allowed the fiends to teleport. It gave the fiends the ability to teleport because it knew the true names of the fiends. The climax of the adventure had that creature getting dunked into the river Styx, which made it forget the names of the fiends, and thus depriving them of their ability to teleport. The yugoloths planned to use the loss of teleportation to gain control over the demons and devils, they'd swear alliegiance to the yugoloths to get teleporting back. That could make an interesting setup to this Armageddon campaign.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

So really, it's up to the DM. Myself, I use Asmo as a proto-god that embodies lawful evil.

Same here!

 

[Shemeska]

It depends on what source you want to use. The idea of the other fiends being creations of the baernaloths was introduced in Hellbound. Presumably that includes Asmodeus, who wasn't even mentioned in that set.

However, the later 2e product A Guide to Hell presents Asmodeus as a fallen entity of great evil that predates the gods or something like that. The Manual of the Planes sort of touches on both points, generally presenting Asmo as an archdevil, while hinting that there might be more to him than is generally known.

*nod* The entire Baernaloth's creating the Yugoloths who in turn created the first of the Tanar'ri and Baatezu was expanded mostly in Hellbound, and as I recall, was also touched upon in 'Faces of Evil:The Fiends' and perhaps in the Planes of Conflict box set.

The later 2e Guide to Hell went off in a much different direction from Planescape w/ regards to a number of things, and gets bludgeoned most often for its radical re-interpretation of Asmodeus. It's not so much that re-interpretation that I don't care for, but the total removal of all of the mystery surrounding Asmo. I rather like the idea of his form being a projected avatar of another hidden, massive form. However I didn't care for the whole 2 serpents of law thing which was at odds with previous material, and the whole Ahriman and unbelief thing, that pushed it too out there for my liking.

The 3e MotP I think handled this in a fine way, by mentioning that hidden form idea, but not including the Ahriman idea, and making it rumor that could be included or not included at the discretion of the DM. Very well handled in my opinion.