D&D Beyond: Lurker in the Deep

I take it those are your arguments for Zendikar being the next setting? I mean Zendikar does have Kraken, I remember that much.
I think the idea that the book is a "setting book" at all unlikely. I don't think we will be seeing another setting book for at least a year after Eberron, which is itself still two months out.

These classes are being floated for a splat book. It's been a while since Xanathar's, and we know it sold very well, it would be foolish not to have another one in the pipeline. The book may have some kind of linking theme, but it will be a splat book not a setting book.

As for this particular subclass, I doubt it will even make the cut, being both mechanically boring and thematically unnecessary (GOO warlock already covering krakens).
 

Parmandur

Legend
I think the idea that the book is a "setting book" at all unlikely. I don't think we will be seeing another setting book for at least a year after Eberron, which is itself still two months out.

These classes are being floated for a splat book. It's been a while since Xanathar's, and we know it sold very well, it would be foolish not to have another one in the pipeline. The book may have some kind of linking theme, but it will be a splat book not a setting book.

As for this particular subclass, I doubt it will even make the cut, being both mechanically boring and thematically unnecessary (GOO warlock already covering krakens).
These are being floated for a book with Subclasses sometime next year, possibly as late as November 2020. Anything beyond that is speculation.

However, a few points.

They have said there would be a Xanathar's follow up eventually, but talked about that recently as being a few years off, so that seems unlikely.

They don't do themed splats in 5E, and haven't even done a single splat book by the classical understanding of the "*-book" proper.

Nate Stewart said in the January 2019 Spoilers & Swag, in response to the question of whether Ravnica had been well received and whether there might be more Magic D&D books in the future, that Ravnica had been extremely successful, and that there would be further Magic D&D setting books but that they hadn't gotten the data in time to pull the trigger on a 2019 Magic setting book. He was pretty emphatic on there being another Magic setting, and soon.

Zendikar is coming out as a Magic block at the same time a theoretical D&D November setting book would, and is a D&D Adventure themed world. A world where the four recent Subclasses and the Archivist would fit thematically.

Not saying it is definitely what they are doing, but it is plausible. They may well be doing a Xanathar's book in spite of prior statements, but then we'd probably be seeing way, way more options tested more rapidly.
 
These are being floated for a book with Subclasses sometime next year, possibly as late as November 2020. Anything beyond that is speculation.
Well, you said yourself that it has been said that if something in UA hasn't been seen in print within 12 months then it will probably never be seen at all. Ergo, whatever book these subclasses are planned for must be scheduled before September 2020. November is far to late.
They have said there would be a Xanathar's follow up eventually, but talked about that recently as being a few years off, so that seems unlikely.
Xanathar's was published in 2017, 2020 is three years later. That easily qualifies as "a few years off".

They don't do themed splats in 5E, and haven't even done a single splat book by the classical understanding of the "*-book" proper.
You forgot the "yet".

Nate Stewart said in the January 2019 Spoilers & Swag, in response to the question of whether Ravnica had been well received and whether there might be more Magic D&D books in the future, that Ravnica had been extremely successful, and that there would be further Magic D&D setting books but that they hadn't gotten the data in time to pull the trigger on a 2019 Magic setting book. He was pretty emphatic on there being another Magic setting, and soon.
I would say that Ravnica was well received because the content was of a good quality, and has little to do with any MTG connection. As for more MTG settings, that seems like a path to 1980s style campaign setting bloat, and a recipe for disaster. Also note that Ravnica only had two subclasses, whatever book this is will have at least five.

I would see a MTG related product that is not a setting book being less unlikely, perhaps with rules for adding colour magic, planeswalkers, and a couple of paragraphs on several MTG planes. Maybe even an crossover adventure book: they are on record on saying the next adventure after Decent will be something "not seen before".

But this particular class doesn't indicate anything along those lines. You could make an equally (as in "not very") strong case that it implies a Pirates of The Caribbean campaign setting, since that clearly features a kraken and characters covered in barnacles.
 
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Parmandur

Legend
Well, you said yourself that it has been said that if something in UA hasn't been seen in print within 12 months then it will probably never be seen at all. Ergo, whatever book these subclasses are planned for must be scheduled before September 2020. November is far to late.
12 months for a product to be announced, at least: all of the Eberron material was tested in UA well before November, except for the final Artificer. It's a good time for early feedback on Subclass concepts still, and timing is obviously up in the air.

Xanathar's was published in 2017, 2020 is three years later. That easily qualifies as "a few years off".
Mearls said in May, during the Baldur's Gate 3 interviews, that Xanathar's was a few years off from 2019. Could be misdirection, but Mearls isn't that sneaky. No Xanathar's quite uett.

You forgot the "yet".
But themed "splats" are one of the products they have said they will not do: hence radically diverse books like Xanathar's. Themed books limit their audience, they would much prefer that everyone wants to buy 60% of a book than 60% of people buy a whole book. A Xanathar's style book is definitely possible, but an aimed splat is not a good ROI.

I would say that Ravnica was well received because the content was of a good quality, and has little to do with any MTG connection. As for more MTG settings, that seems like a path to 1980s style campaign setting bloat, and a recipe for disaster. Also note that Ravnica only had two subclasses, whatever book this is will have at least five.
That's not what Stewart said, though. He was pretty clear that Magic settings are in the cards for the near future.

I would see a MTG related product that is not a setting book being less unlikely, perhaps with rules for adding colour magic, planeswalkers, and a couple of paragraphs on several MTG planes. Maybe even an crossover adventure book: they are on record on saying the next adventure after Decent will be something "not seen before".

But this particular class doesn't indicate anything along those lines. You could make an equally (as in "not very") strong case that it implies a Pirates of The Caribbean campaign setting, since that clearly features a kraken and characters covered in barnacles.
This makes much more sense if read as a Blue Mana Warlock, just as the Barbarian and Monk last month make sense as Red Mana Subclasses.
 

Undrave

Adventurer
As for this particular subclass, I doubt it will even make the cut, being both mechanically boring and thematically unnecessary (GOO warlock already covering krakens).
I disagree with it being mechanically boring, considering you get to summon tentacles and the maw of your patron, that's pretty rad. It could be more Short Rest based like the rest of the Warlock though, and should have new evocations.

As for being unnecessary I also disagree. The GOO Warlock is more akin to the 4e Star Pact Warlock than this oceanic themed one.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I disagree with it being mechanically boring, considering you get to summon tentacles and the maw of your patron, that's pretty rad. It could be more Short Rest based like the rest of the Warlock though, and should have new evocations.

As for being unnecessary I also disagree. The GOO Warlock is more akin to the 4e Star Pact Warlock than this oceanic themed one.
Yes, if one is trying to fill the Mana wheel for each Class, this would be a more fitting option. And a world like Zendikar is full of appropriate Patrons to fit the theme.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Also note that Ravnica only had two subclasses, whatever book this is will have at least five.
Just to zoom in on this, let's take a look at which books, aside from. The PHB and DMG, have introduced Subclasses, and how many:

  • 2015, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide (Campaign Setting): 11.5 Subclasses (Variant features for the Totem Barbarian and 11 full Subclasses)
  • 2017, Xanathar's Guide to Everything (big rules expansion): 31* (4 reprints from SCAG)
  • 2018: Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica (campaign setting): 2 Subclasses (big PC options were Background innovations, two Subclasses failed in playtest)
  • 2019, Rising from the Last War (campaign setting): 3 (1 whole new Class)

So, in five years we have had four supplements that introduce new Subclasses, three of which were campaign settings and the outlier was a huge general expansion book. If we were looking at another rbig expansion book, we'd probably see more than 5 Subclasses in test, bit if it is a campaign setting then 5+ would be reasonable even if that is more than the prior two slightly. I'd even predict more Subclass tests, based around White, Green or Black Mana, and new Spells in all probability (since they are working on new spells).
 

gyor

Adventurer
12 months for a product to be announced, at least: all of the Eberron material was tested in UA well before November, except for the final Artificer. It's a good time for early feedback on Subclass concepts still, and timing is obviously up in the air.



Mearls said in May, during the Baldur's Gate 3 interviews, that Xanathar's was a few years off from 2019. Could be misdirection, but Mearls isn't that sneaky. No Xanathar's quite uett.



But themed "splats" are one of the products they have said they will not do: hence radically diverse books like Xanathar's. Themed books limit their audience, they would much prefer that everyone wants to buy 60% of a book than 60% of people buy a whole book. A Xanathar's style book is definitely possible, but an aimed splat is not a good ROI.
This the kind of logic that has made most of the 5e books a sloppy mess and setting lore tangled and confusing at times.

MTOF, VGTM, and XGTE are all messes that really don't know what they want to be, so they are all a mix of high quality with utterly embarassing crap and ****ups up lore. It even makes them hard to review because they are, all basically two or more books haphazardly mashed together. They often can't agree on which setting the book is supposed to be for.

XGTE is both the most useful for players of these books and also the biggest rage inducing rip off of a book (17 pages of names, %&%&%!).

The SCAG doesn't suffer from this and neither does WGE, but the SCAG needs it's own version of Rising From The Last War, because it's too skinny, and it's subclasses should have been properly playtested first.

The PHB is still the most useful book of course and suffers from none of these flaws.
 

Parmandur

Legend
This the kind of logic that has made most of the 5e books a sloppy mess and setting lore tangled and confusing at times.

MTOF, VGTM, and XGTE are all messes that really don't know what they want to be, so they are all a mix of high quality with utterly embarassing crap and ****ups up lore. It even makes them hard to review because they are, all basically two or more books haphazardly mashed together. They often can't agree on which setting the book is supposed to be for.

XGTE is both the most useful for players of these books and also the biggest rage inducing rip off of a book (17 pages of names, %&%&%!).

The SCAG doesn't suffer from this and neither does WGE, but the SCAG needs it's own version of Rising From The Last War, because it's too skinny, and it's subclasses should have been properly playtested first.

The PHB is still the most useful book of course and suffers from none of these flaws.
The names appendix apparently got them great feedback, apparently.

Like it or not is fair, but they have profited from this approach, do it is unlikely to change soon.
 

PsyzhranV2

Explorer
This the kind of logic that has made most of the 5e books a sloppy mess and setting lore tangled and confusing at times.

MTOF, VGTM, and XGTE are all messes that really don't know what they want to be, so they are all a mix of high quality with utterly embarassing crap and ****ups up lore. It even makes them hard to review because they are, all basically two or more books haphazardly mashed together. They often can't agree on which setting the book is supposed to be for.

XGTE is both the most useful for players of these books and also the biggest rage inducing rip off of a book (17 pages of names, %&%&%!).

The SCAG doesn't suffer from this and neither does WGE, but the SCAG needs it's own version of Rising From The Last War, because it's too skinny, and it's subclasses should have been properly playtested first.

The PHB is still the most useful book of course and suffers from none of these flaws.
I mean, I only came into this fandom 3 years ago and don't have access to or the time to read all the sources from the previous 4 editions, so I kind of need that name table because I'm not happy naming my characters "Peaceblade Farideh" or "Dwarfy McDwarferson". I'd imagine the same goes for other newbies.

The names appendix apparently got them great feedback, apparently.

Like it or not is fair, but they have profited from this approach, do it is unlikely to change soon.
See above as to why.
 
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I disagree with it being mechanically boring, considering you get to summon tentacles and the maw of your patron, that's pretty rad. It could be more Short Rest based like the rest of the Warlock though, and should have new evocations.

As for being unnecessary I also disagree. The GOO Warlock is more akin to the 4e Star Pact Warlock than this oceanic themed one.
The thing is, as referenced in the video, the "tentacles" where originally generic limbs, and it still shows, in that they don't do anything particularly tentacle-ish. Change the cold/lightning damage to bludgeoning+grapple targets and it would be much more thematic, and a little more useful. But it's still a power that is only occasionally available, does meh damage, and competes for bonus actions with better things like Hex.

The Maw power is fine, but you don't actually get that until level 10, around the time most campaigns are winding up, so I can't see most players getting much use out of it.

As already pointed out, the expanded spells are garbage, and need to be replaced with spells from Xanathar's and Elemental Evil.

Also compare to the Raven Queen warlock, which didn't make the cut. It's problem? To specific. Whilst attempts to sell this as suitable for water elementals, it really doesn't work for anything other than krakens.

This subclass isn't beyond redemption, but it needs to go back to the drawing board and be thoroughly reworked.
 
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Undrave

Adventurer
The thing is, as referenced in the video, the "tentacles" where originally generic limbs, and it still shows, in that they don't do anything particularly tentacle-ish. Change the cold/lightning damage to bludgeoning+grapple targets and it would be much more thematic, and a little more useful. But it's still a power that is only occasionally available, does meh damage, and competes for bonus actions with better things like Hex.

The Maw power is fine, but you don't actually get that until level 10, around the time most campaigns are winding up, so I can't see most players getting much use out of it.

As already pointed out, the expanded spells are garbage, and need to be replaced with spells from Xanathar's and Elemental Evil.

Also compare to the Raven Queen warlock, which didn't make the cut. It's problem? To specific. Whilst attempts to sell this as suitable for water elementals, it really doesn't work for anything other than krakens.

This subclass isn't beyond redemption, but it needs to go back to the drawing board and be thoroughly reworked.
Seems like a lot of minor tweaks more than anything.
 

gyor

Adventurer
I mean, I only came into this fandom 3 years ago and don't have access to or the time to read all the sources from the previous 4 editions, so I kind of need that name table because I'm not happy naming my characters "Peaceblade Farideh" or "Dwarfy McDwarferson". I'd imagine the same goes for other newbies.


See above as to why.
You literally look up sites filled with names and even programs that are name generators for free.
 

Undrave

Adventurer
They are all literal interruptions. I am not afraid of dumping a rule I think is trash even if it means more work. Everyone gets a turn sounds fair doesn’t it. Counter spell isn’t problematic I consider it good which is why I wanted to keep it.
Go take www.fantasynamegenerators.com for a few spins see and if you get anything but total gibberish.
Or you can look at real names from History or other cultures. For my Svirfneblin Monk I went for Polish names.
 

gyor

Adventurer
Go take www.fantasynamegenerators.com for a few spins see and if you get anything but total gibberish.
Yatven Slimwhisper
Inetron Runewalker
Bemaald Soulcloud
Herazhen Nightbringer
Rallor Duskswitch
Amordris Freesense
Mirdanis Flareheart
Alsuthenis Brightfaith
Sylthol Runelight
Tyniarren Warmburst

I actually like a lot of these, I mean I might actually use some of these in stories I write or NPCs or PCs.

Mirdanis Flareheart I see was a human Paladin of Devotion to Torm, Sylthol Runelight I see as a female Dwarf Wizard, Alsuthenis Brightfaith as a Cleric of Lanthadar, Rallor Duskwitch a Shadar Kai Undying Warlock, Inetron Runewalker a Goliath Horizon Walker Ranger, Bemaald Cloudsoul a Lizardfolk Circle of the Sheppard Druid, Yatven Slimwalker Arcane Trickster. Amordris Freesense an Aasimar Divine Soul Sorcerer of Shares (Chaos affinity), who eventually gets leopard print bat wings.
 

Urriak Uruk

Explorer
But themed "splats" are one of the products they have said they will not do: hence radically diverse books like Xanathar's. Themed books limit their audience, they would much prefer that everyone wants to buy 60% of a book than 60% of people buy a whole book. A Xanathar's style book is definitely possible, but an aimed splat is not a good ROI.
To be fair, Ghosts of Saltmarsh is kind of a themed splatbook, though it obviously is mostly the remade adventure.

Part of me thinks these subclasses aren't actually coming in a book for awhile, Crawford said one of the other designers just threw these together and he wanted to see if people liked them.
 

Parmandur

Legend
To be fair, Ghosts of Saltmarsh is kind of a themed splatbook, though it obviously is mostly the remade adventure.
Not a splat book, though it is themed: Adventure generation material is not character options, which is what "*-book" indicates ( "Complete *" series, "Heroes of *" series, stuff like that).

Part of me thinks these subclasses aren't actually coming in a book for awhile, Crawford said one of the other designers just threw these together and he wanted to see if people liked them.
I think they are obviously having fun, but for a product.
 
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To be fair, Ghosts of Saltmarsh is kind of a themed splatbook, though it obviously is mostly the remade adventure.

Part of me thinks these subclasses aren't actually coming in a book for awhile, Crawford said one of the other designers just threw these together and he wanted to see if people liked them.
And MToF is a themed monster manual. But it is a loose theme, not a tight theme. Whilst many of the creatures in it are connected to epic planer conflicts, there are some that are completely unconnected.
 

Urriak Uruk

Explorer
Not a splat book, though it is themed: Adventure generation material is not character options, which is what "*-book" indicates ( "Complete *" series, "Heroes of *" series, stuff like that).
GoS isn't a splatbook but it still has a lot more additional rules in it than the typical Adventure book. And it may be the case that Wizard's is testing putting more rules along with Adventure Books, to push the "rules buyers" into buying Adventure books too. They're really pushing how The Descent has rules for warmachines and contracts.

I think they are obviously having fun, but for a product.
Still trying to figure out what product these could be for... I doubt it's another Xanathar's, for the reasons you and others have brought up. It also seems like too much for an Adventure book. Is it possible Wizard's is moving to a new Setting Book every year, and that this is for something like Zendikar/Dominaria/Theros/Greyhawk?

I also really like that "Rabiah Scale" article you posted, it's got Dominaria, Ravnica, Zendikar, Innistrad and Theros as in their top "most likely to make a new magic set for."

If the same scale works for "new D&D setting," I'd rank them least to most likely Innistrad, Dominaria, Theros and Zendikar.

Innistrad is unlikely to me as it's mostly "more Ravenloft." It's cool but it wouldn't be that unique.

Dominaria is popular but I put it as less than Theros and Zendikar because those two settings are coincidentally getting new Card sets next year.

Not sure if Theros or Zendikar are more likely for a setting book... neither has a Planeshift, and I believe Zendikar is the more fleshed out but I'm not very knowledgeable on it.
 

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