D&D: big as it ever was? (Forked Thread: So...How are Sales of 4E Product?)

[T. Foster]

Any idea what was defined as a player? Is that someone who has ever played, or someone who plays twice a month?

I don't have the book handy, and don't think he actually provided a definition (monthly, weekly, more than twice ever, etc.), but I'm fairly sure it wasn't "someone who has ever played" because (IIRC) he stated that if you counted people who had played the game at least once that the total was likely 2-3 times higher.

 

[darjr]

In his book Roleplaying Mastery (1987), Gary Gygax cited estimates from TSR of 5 million D&D players in the US, 8 million worldwide.

Very cool! Thank you.

I can't seem to find the quote on line, and it's not in the Google book sample. I'll have to hunt down the book, always wanted a copy.

 

[garyh]

Does Gygax give any sort of justification of those numbers? Or are they just guesses?

 

[Dire Bare]

You're subtly changing your argument. Your original comment was about sales figures:

Not really. I don't remember people arguing about sales numbers back in the 1e to 2e transition, but then again I didn't spend way too much of my time on ENWorld back then either. But I do remember similar complaints during each edition change, the sales numbers "debate" is simply one aspect of the anti-4e denial "arguments" some folks put forth here on the boards. (not that disliking 4e necessarily equals being anti-4e)

And my point is that the critics of 2E were, business-wise, proven to be correct by the late 90's.

Really? If you can provide any sort of proof that 1e sold better than 2e, I'd love to see it.

2e was flawed in many ways. But I'm confident that more people played it than 1e, and that it sold better than 1e. Not so much because it was inherently superior to 1e, it wasn't, but because it built upon the shoulders of the past edition just like all subsequent editions do.

 

[The Little Raven]

So everything else that TSR did in the 90's was rubbish, but 2E was a golden child of profitability, beautiful in all ways?

D&D was the only thing that kept TSR afloat as long as it did. 2nd Edition was their only real source of profit for the majority of the decade.

I think not -- all of these were missteps from the same company running in the wrong direction, around the 2E era.

The mismanagement started much earlier than the 2E era. I know people love Gygax, but the guy mismanaged the company bad enough that he lost control of it.

The concensus I've always is heard is that 2E drove old players away, and 3E brought them back again -- and now it looks like 4E is driving a good proportion of them away again.

And the consensus I've seen disputes yours.

 

[The Little Raven]

Does Gygax give any sort of justification of those numbers? Or are they just guesses?

With how spotty Ryan Dancey said TSR's records were at times and no evidence of market research, I wonder how accurate their data was.

 

[T. Foster]

Does Gygax give any sort of justification of those numbers? Or are they just guesses?

He didn't cite any authority or rationale (other than saying something to the effect that they were "TSR numbers"), but at that time he was in as good a position as anybody to have whatever numbers there were, and in a better position than most. Remember that even after he left TSR he still received per-unit royalties for sales of D&D and AD&D books, up until the release of 2nd edition.

 

[garyh]

He didn't cite any authority or rationale (other than saying something to the effect that they were "TSR numbers"), but at that time he was in as good a position as anybody to have whatever numbers there were, and in a better position than most. Remember that even after he left TSR he still received per-unit royalties for sales of D&D and AD&D books, up until the release of 2nd edition.

That's what I thought - better position than most, but still no real idea.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

That's what I thought - better position than most, but still no real idea.

Yep, Gary must have been lying out his ass, but similar statements from today's designers is as good as word from God, gotcha.

 

[Xath]

Don't credit that movie with anything more than the novelty it was. It added no new awareness for the game, or increase sales. It just had people realize they could play again, and many people did, but not with the latest edition.

Speaking from personal experience, that's not true. I started gaming in 2000. Some new friends of mine (at the time) thought I'd be interested in joining their D&D 3.0 group. I hadn't really heard of it, so I got the movie to learn what it was about. (as sad of a confession as it is) D&D the movie helped get me into gaming.