D&D 5E (2024) D&D Classes without Subclasses?

[Eyes of Nine]

Over in another thread, someone mentions that they feel that subclasses are limiting.

Whether we agree with them or not, it kind of got me thinking about D&D without subclasses.
If you removed the default builds (aka subclasses), could you do something easy like take every single current class feature, assigned it a level, and then had a shopping list of new features per level per class? Some would have pre-requisites of course - Like if you chose Sorcerer L 18 class feature "Tamed Surge", you would also need to have taken L 3 class feature "Wild Magic Surge".

It sounds very doable; but also could lead to some wacky stuff! I'm almost tempted to try this for a short campaign just to see how it goes.

I don't have the right brain to recall to mind all the class features; so wondering if there are any immediately outrageous (I won't call them broken...) builds that jump to ENWorld users' minds?

 

[Li Shenron]

Why not, as long as a feature is applicable to your class. If I understand right, you mean that instead of gaining subclass features, at those levels you would pick a feature from a list (compiled from base class features or also subclass features?), as long as your level is at least equal to that of the feature.

Most likely you'll get more powerful PCs than usual, as players will cherrypick the best features.

A simpler idea could also be to allow a feat at each of those levels.

 

[Horwath]

if they went with universal subclasses, that could work, but subclass features are not worth equally by them selves or by total budget when comparing class to class.

Sure some could be coded as half-feat/full feats, but some are more than that and some are less than half a feat.
1st thing you need is to rebalance subclass features that they are all either worth half a feat or full feat.
then set subclass levels at levels 2,6,10,14,18.
turn those levels to feat slots.

now you have feat slots at levels, 1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,19.... wait, I have seen this before....

 

[Silam]

I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately. To me, it feels weird that my character cannot be both an Eldritch Knight and a Battle Master. Obviously, this would require diluting experience across distinct endeavors, and there should be a cost associated with that. But I don’t understand why the rail-roading is in place. If I can be both a Battle Master and an Arcane Trickster, then surely I should be able to be a BM and and EK, which is thematically closer than a Figther id to s Rogue.

 

[Horwath]

I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately. To me, it feels weird that my character cannot be both an Eldritch Knight and a Battle Master. Obviously, this would require diluting experience across distinct endeavors, and there should be a cost associated with that. But I don’t understand why the rail-roading is in place. If I can be both a Battle Master and an Arcane Trickster, then surely I should be able to be a BM and and EK, which is thematically closer than a Figther id to s Rogue.

maybe best way for a touch of BM via feat,

IE: homebrew
Battle master initiate:
+1 str or dex,
learn 2 maneuvers
gain 2 superiority dice, they are d6. regain them after short rest.

you can gain this feat multiple time.

 

[TwoSix]

Class that can take any class feature as feats.

Adventurer by /u/aeyana

Adventurer by /u/aeyana - Created with GM Binder.

www.gmbinder.com

 

[bedir than]

The balance difference between Eldritch Knight spell casting and Frenzy or Hunter's Lore makes me chuckle.

 

[lycanthropejeff]

Over in another thread, someone mentions that they feel that subclasses are limiting.

Whether we agree with them or not, it kind of got me thinking about D&D without subclasses.
If you removed the default builds (aka subclasses), could you do something easy like take every single current class feature, assigned it a level, and then had a shopping list of new features per level per class? Some would have pre-requisites of course - Like if you chose Sorcerer L 18 class feature "Tamed Surge", you would also need to have taken L 3 class feature "Wild Magic Surge".

It sounds very doable; but also could lead to some wacky stuff! I'm almost tempted to try this for a short campaign just to see how it goes.

I don't have the right brain to recall to mind all the class features; so wondering if there are any immediately outrageous (I won't call them broken...) builds that jump to ENWorld users' minds?

Fantastic topic! I always wanted to combine aspects of the thief and swashbuckler in 5e for a rogue/archaeologist. I wish you could multi-subclass... You concept would easily allow for that.

 

[djotaku]

I'm partially talking out of my butt, but having read a lot about the Paizo games in the past few months, but not having GM'd yet - isn't this kinda how Paizo does things? You just have a list of a bunch of feats per class and you grab whatever? I think the biggest problem (from what I've heard ppl complaining about) is that things then get so wild that people have paralysis of choice. And you have to start using things like Pathbuilder to help you create a character. I think it's also why they ahve things like Archetypes that seem to allow for what you guys are looking for.

Assuming I'm not 100% wrong - it implies that it could be done, but would require a new version of D&D in order to make sure things work/are balanced correctly in terms of choices.