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D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

Given that it's usually the fighter with full plate and a DEX of 10 who fails the skill check, that tends not to happen.

If you whole party where rogues with reliable talent and expertise in the appropriate skill then they might be able to pull off a heist without fighting, but outside of a one-shot that never happens. And if it's a one-shot you may as well play a heist game.

Yes but it's a team/party based game... no one said the fighter has to rectify the situation himself.

Also I have to address this because I just don't get the logic behind it... why would the fighter, knowing they are going in for stealth... wear full plate?? Unless it's magical or silenced or something else along those lines...why?

EDIT 2: And with that Dex of 10... Guidance & Inspiration would definitely be his friend
 

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Yes but it's a team/party based game... no one said the fighter has to rectify the situation himself.
Have you met a fighter?
Also I have to address this because I just don't get the logic behind it... why would the fighter, knowing they are going in for stealth... wear full plate??
Because they are a fighter. You try and tell him he needs to take his precious armour off!

It could be worse. The first heist mission we tried to run in 5e failed because the barbarian got bored and started smashing things for the fun of it.
 

The GM asks me to make an ability check to resolve my PC's action. What is the space that I, as the player, can understand that the GM will resolve the check? If it's binary pass/fail, then I at least understand what the risks are. If, however, the GM is now using the full gamut of options, then I as the player do not know if this action will be binary pass/fail where fail is bad, if this action will mean I will succeed, but there may be a cost, or if I can fail just as bad as 1, but the GM will open a new window (fail forward). My ability to grasp the risks of the situation become worse if the GM has all of these options on the table. The only way this clears up is if the GM is either extremely consistent and I have enough experience to rely on that (idiosyncratic to table) or if the GM makes things very player-facing, so the outcome space is clear before the check is agreed to.
But what's confusing me here is that you seem to be saying they're putting things into this sort of quantum state where the player doesn't know what's going on, but if I look at the rules suggestions on page 242, that doesn't appear to be the case:

Here's a cut-down take on them I found:

"SUCCESS AT A COST: ...When a character fails a roll by only 1 or 2, you can allow the character to succeed at the cost of a complication or hindrance. Such complications can run along any of the following lines... A character fails to intimidate a kobold prisoner, but the kobold reveals its secrets anyway while shrieking at the top of its lungs, alerting other nearby monsters.

DEGREES OF FAILURE: ...A character who fails to disarm a trapped chest might accidentally spring the trap if the check fails by 5 or more, whereas a lesser failure means that the trap wasn't triggered during the botched disarm attempt... Perhaps a failed Charisma (Persuasion) check means a queen won't help, whereas a failure of 5 or more means she throws you in the dungeon for your impudence.

CRITICAL SUCCESS OR FAILURE: ...rolling a 1 on a failed attempt to pick a lock might break the thieves' tools being used, and rolling a 20 on a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check might reveal an extra clue."

So I don't see how "success at a cost" makes the game worse. Can you explain that? "If you fail by 1-2 points the DM may give you a choice to succeed with a complication or hindrance". The only issue I see is the "may"? Otherwise this is a similar approach to a lot of games, including BitD, and can absolutely be factored in for.

Degrees of failure I'm also not really seeing how that's different either, apart from you knowing the fairly consistently, if you fail by 5 or more, the DM will go for a worse result than less than that. Again this seems like something you can account for.

Critical fail/success I loathe but there's no question there - you can absolutely account for that, I've played games in which this is used.

You say that unless the DM is consistent they muddy the waters, but I think that's a pretty straightforward matter, and if the DM is inconsistent, you're already playing like this to some extent, just based on his whimsy. The only real potential issue I see is if the DM didn't always apply them to rolls. Like if some of the time they did, and other times they didn't, and I mean apply them at all - like one roll a fail by 1-2 was success-at-a-cost, next time is was straight fail, and so on. That would be unhelpful, but also nearly inconceivable to me.

You also mentioned "fail forward" as one of these options and it isn't. I'm not sure why you mentioned it - isn't that just a principle of design? And one that applies to D&D even w/o page 242?

The core of the system is still check with the GM. You actually see the problems when the shift is from games like D&D to games like FATE, or Cortex Prime, or Burning Wheel, or PbtA. These games have a fundamentally different set of base assumptions about play, and most D&D players are not used to considering their game from those baseline assumptions and so miss the shift.
Oh definitely. And confusing the issue is that with PtbA at least there's still quite a bit of "ask the DM" or "the DM will tell you what to roll", which can slow down how they re-understand the system, ironically probably helps PtbA's popularity as it's less of a "system shock".

I don't know why we would? Is there something to this argumentum ad populum that tells us something? I'm absolutely fine with saying that most games out there share the same core assumptions that 5e does. This is even ignoring the outsized effect 5e has on the market -- with it it's even more true. That, however, doesn't show or prove anything, so I'm curious as to what you think this appeal to popularity really shows?
It's not an appeal to popularity, my point is one that you agreed above - most games take a D&D-ish approach. Hence a lot of the criticism of D&D specifically even though the the issue is a broad/general one with systems taking that general approach feels a little misguided. I guess maybe it's a point more important to me than others? Like, I see two general issues in this thread:

1) Issues largely specific to D&D which make it ill-suited to integrating or emulating genre stuff.

2) Issues broadly applicable to all DM-centric RPGs that make them ill-suited to emulating specific genre stuff

Maybe I'm the only one who cares lol. But I think it's relevant because a lot of people dismissively saying "D&D doesn't support heists and is bad at them!" would start feeling real uncomfortable if they had to say the same about Shadowrun or Cyberpunk, even though they have nigh-identical issues.

And no, more options is not worse, this is a terrible take, stop that one right now. Options that are more "GM decides how this works" make the game less understandable to the players. How this is a challenging statement I'm not sure.
Literally the argument you've made about D&D's page 242 being bad appears to apply completely to Hard-Wired Island, except maybe Hard-Wired Island is worse, because if the player fails in HWI, they have no idea if the DM will go with total failure, success at a cost, or a bargain, rather than the numbers determining it. So "right back atcha" with the "how is this a challenging statement"? If you are saying HWI is bad for the same reasons page 242 is bad, okay, but that's an interesting opinion.
 

Have you met a fighter?

Because they are a fighter. You try and tell him he needs to take his precious armour off!

It could be worse. The first heist mission we tried to run in 5e failed because the barbarian got bored and started smashing things for the fun of it.
There's a big difference between being screwed by the system and asking for it.
 


It could be worse. The first heist mission we tried to run in 5e failed because the barbarian got bored and started smashing things for the fun of it.
I still remember a Cyberpunk 2020 heist that went real loud, despite extensive planning and scouting, a Netrunner locking down the security, and so on, because the damned Solo who was meant to be covering the loading dock escape route decided that instead of staying hidden (which he was), he was going to shoot a guard who was just standing around oblivious, with a massive gun with a several-foot plasma muzzle-flash. Also "because he was bored".

Thus we went from "probably not having to kill anyone" to like 20 bodies hitting the floor and barely escaping alive. Thanks buddy!

(Of course now in D&D he's often the lead guy behind extremely elaborate non-violent heist strategies.)

Maybe this is the biggest challenge with heists and the real thing BitD is there to fight - boredom leading to stupidity! ;)
 

Well, I had a few posts quoted and replies half written and then the forum glitched and it’s all gone so...ugh.

@Hussar stop the martyr act. No one is implying that you suck. A thing being easy for me doesn’t mean that any who it isn’t easy for is bad, it literally just means different things are easier or harder for similarly competent people. Stop twisting peoples words.

as to your last few replies to me...you are so close to getting it, dude. My experience has never been implied to be universal! That’s the whole frelling point! Stop universalizing your experience!
 

Thing is, once you've gone past the most basic things - OK, it's to be a medieval-fantasy-based table-top RPG preferably with party-based play to emulate the adventurers in LotR - the answer to "What is this game about?" is sooner or later gong to be "Within the parameters listed, everything."

The thing I like about D&D is it hits that "Everything" answer sooner than most bespoke games (put another way, it has fewer confining parameters), and then tries to cover that ground. Flexibility rather than pinpoint accuracy, sacrificing perfection in a narrow area for good enough in a wide area.
See, this is what is so odd to me about all the people who say this, I don't get it at all. Not just me, the whole history of the RPG industry, and the actions of TSR's designers, etc. have all pointed out the same thing clearly. D&D is a one-trick pony. Yes, TSR did once do a brief experiment with implementing another game on the 'chassis' of D&D, Metamorphosis Alpha, and its 2nd Edition, Gamma World 1. They're good games, but more DESPITE being based on D&D rather than because of it. And in terms of 'based on' GW is VERY loosely based on D&D. For example you get CON d6 hit points at level 1 and they never change after that. Leveling barely matters at all, and I don't ever recall that we even bothered to tally XP, it does practically nothing for you. The whole game progression is based on gear and/or lucking out and getting good mutations when you inevitably get fried with radiation. There are no classes, combat is only roughly similar to D&D, etc.

TSR never tried this again. Over the next 25 years they released many many games, exactly ZERO of which are based, even loosely, on D&D. I mean, why not loosely base Boot Hill on D&D? Its stats could have been written as 3d6 ranges. Heck, 'SPEED' could have been called 'DEXTERITY', and they could have included an INT and CON, though bravery and accuracy are kind of their own things, they still could be d6 based. CHA could even have been included if they wanted. But no, its a d100 based system, totally different. Also its damage and wound system are pretty important to the genre and combat wouldn't have been similar either, with its emphasis on gunfire, punch/grapple (something D&D has famously failed to do for 50 years now), and close in knife fighting (another weakness of D&D).

Same with every other game they came out with, Gangbusters, Top Secret, Star Frontiers, etc. No attempt was ever made to even leverage whatever overlap in mechanics COULD have been tried. Nor was this some failing of imagination, as BRP, and then GURPS, just to mention the really high profile ones, demonstrated that sharing mechanics was a workable concept.

I put it to you that the TSR developers understood, FROM DAY ONE, that system matters. That they understood extremely well that mechanics and story are intimately and subtly tied to each other and cannot be divorced, and that D&D is not a very flexible paradigm for most games. I mean, TSR's designers were ALSO constrained by the state of the art of games in their time, and had NO clue, AFAICT, that something like narratively focused games with story and scene framing mechanics were even POSSIBLE. At least they, and their contemporaries in the '80s, never concluded that a game could be built around those sorts of mechanics, ala today's 'indie games'.

I submit that the paradigm of levels, XP, increasing hit points, hit points and AC as a combat model, no or unstructured check systems, classes, and GM-centered referee-style story telling, are only applicable in that combination to a very narrow niche within the wider fantasy genre. WotC has shown 2 things in the last 20 years. One is that it is pretty hard to get that formula to work, even by hacking a bunch of pieces off it, for anything else (d20, particularly modern) cannot really be called much of a success. A few games that are very genre-adjacent to D&D itself were moderately successful. Some of the d20 modern games got some play, for a brief time, but in almost every case where such a game was successful it was re-implemented without using d20. Secondly WotC proved that you CAN create a non-D&D game based on D&D, the d20-based Star Wars, SWSE, game is a good game and seems to work well with a very D&D-like structure. I would point out that Star Wars itself, as a sub-genre of science fantasy, is almost custom designed to be D&D-like. Again, its a narrow niche, when you hit that niche, then D&D shines. Outside of that, not so much.

And obviously you CAN take a genre, horror, heist, secret agents, pirates, three musketeers, mystery, etc. etc. etc. and you can do a version of it within your D&D game for a time, as long as that version is pretty tightly constrained to what will work within D&D's overall paradigm. I mean, try to do a slasher style horror. Are you really going to kill a party member every 20 minutes for 2 hours? How is that mechanically going to work (I mean assuming they're not level 1 PCs)? The very 'armed gang of tough, competent problem solvers' ouvre simply isn't going to mesh with 'Freddy' running around ganking someone from the shadows, or 'off camera'. Plenty of aspects of such action that would benefit heavily from mechanics won't, because D&D lacks the appropriate ones. So, yes, we have Ravenloft, which is basically a Vampire Hunter drama, and that kind of works, though I think if you surveyed everyone who tried to run I6 you would find that it probably failed to an extent for most of them. The rest probably mostly ran it as a straight up adventure module and barely touched on the horror aspects.

D&D was a great start for the RPG hobby. Let it rest on its laurels. Its a good game, for what it does, and some of its elements CAN be pretty useful in other games of a particular sort, but to think that it represents a highly generalized model for RPGs that "just needs a bit of tweaking and some added mechanics" to make it a great match to lots of genres? No, sorry, the wisdom of 2 generations of RPG designers has now spoken on that.
 

See, this is what is so odd to me about all the people who say this, I don't get it at all. Not just me, the whole history of the RPG industry, and the actions of TSR's designers, etc. have all pointed out the same thing clearly. D&D is a one-trick pony. Yes, TSR did once do a brief experiment with implementing another game on the 'chassis' of D&D, Metamorphosis Alpha, and its 2nd Edition, Gamma World 1. They're good games, but more DESPITE being based on D&D rather than because of it. And in terms of 'based on' GW is VERY loosely based on D&D. For example you get CON d6 hit points at level 1 and they never change after that. Leveling barely matters at all, and I don't ever recall that we even bothered to tally XP, it does practically nothing for you. The whole game progression is based on gear and/or lucking out and getting good mutations when you inevitably get fried with radiation. There are no classes, combat is only roughly similar to D&D, etc.

TSR never tried this again. Over the next 25 years they released many many games, exactly ZERO of which are based, even loosely, on D&D. I mean, why not loosely base Boot Hill on D&D? Its stats could have been written as 3d6 ranges. Heck, 'SPEED' could have been called 'DEXTERITY', and they could have included an INT and CON, though bravery and accuracy are kind of their own things, they still could be d6 based. CHA could even have been included if they wanted. But no, its a d100 based system, totally different. Also its damage and wound system are pretty important to the genre and combat wouldn't have been similar either, with its emphasis on gunfire, punch/grapple (something D&D has famously failed to do for 50 years now), and close in knife fighting (another weakness of D&D).

Same with every other game they came out with, Gangbusters, Top Secret, Star Frontiers, etc. No attempt was ever made to even leverage whatever overlap in mechanics COULD have been tried. Nor was this some failing of imagination, as BRP, and then GURPS, just to mention the really high profile ones, demonstrated that sharing mechanics was a workable concept.

I put it to you that the TSR developers understood, FROM DAY ONE, that system matters. That they understood extremely well that mechanics and story are intimately and subtly tied to each other and cannot be divorced, and that D&D is not a very flexible paradigm for most games. I mean, TSR's designers were ALSO constrained by the state of the art of games in their time, and had NO clue, AFAICT, that something like narratively focused games with story and scene framing mechanics were even POSSIBLE. At least they, and their contemporaries in the '80s, never concluded that a game could be built around those sorts of mechanics, ala today's 'indie games'.

I submit that the paradigm of levels, XP, increasing hit points, hit points and AC as a combat model, no or unstructured check systems, classes, and GM-centered referee-style story telling, are only applicable in that combination to a very narrow niche within the wider fantasy genre. WotC has shown 2 things in the last 20 years. One is that it is pretty hard to get that formula to work, even by hacking a bunch of pieces off it, for anything else (d20, particularly modern) cannot really be called much of a success. A few games that are very genre-adjacent to D&D itself were moderately successful. Some of the d20 modern games got some play, for a brief time, but in almost every case where such a game was successful it was re-implemented without using d20. Secondly WotC proved that you CAN create a non-D&D game based on D&D, the d20-based Star Wars, SWSE, game is a good game and seems to work well with a very D&D-like structure. I would point out that Star Wars itself, as a sub-genre of science fantasy, is almost custom designed to be D&D-like. Again, its a narrow niche, when you hit that niche, then D&D shines. Outside of that, not so much.

And obviously you CAN take a genre, horror, heist, secret agents, pirates, three musketeers, mystery, etc. etc. etc. and you can do a version of it within your D&D game for a time, as long as that version is pretty tightly constrained to what will work within D&D's overall paradigm. I mean, try to do a slasher style horror. Are you really going to kill a party member every 20 minutes for 2 hours? How is that mechanically going to work (I mean assuming they're not level 1 PCs)? The very 'armed gang of tough, competent problem solvers' ouvre simply isn't going to mesh with 'Freddy' running around ganking someone from the shadows, or 'off camera'. Plenty of aspects of such action that would benefit heavily from mechanics won't, because D&D lacks the appropriate ones. So, yes, we have Ravenloft, which is basically a Vampire Hunter drama, and that kind of works, though I think if you surveyed everyone who tried to run I6 you would find that it probably failed to an extent for most of them. The rest probably mostly ran it as a straight up adventure module and barely touched on the horror aspects.

D&D was a great start for the RPG hobby. Let it rest on its laurels. Its a good game, for what it does, and some of its elements CAN be pretty useful in other games of a particular sort, but to think that it represents a highly generalized model for RPGs that "just needs a bit of tweaking and some added mechanics" to make it a great match to lots of genres? No, sorry, the wisdom of 2 generations of RPG designers has now spoken on that.
Except not, because 5e is literally successfully being used for multiple genres and games. There are like 3 really good sci-fi games based on 5e.

And TSR made every game super different because they thought they’d do better that way, because the idea was that people wouldn’t want to buy Alternity if it was just 2e D&D in space. they’re different because TSR thought otherwise people will say, “what’s the difference? Why should I buy this additional thing?”

The different TSR games have different engines even when there is literally no tonal difference from the different engine. Alternity doesn’t actually play significantly differently. The different health system is the only difference that really changes things, and even it doesn’t exactly make you super fragile. They just came up with different mechanics for every game so that the game would have a different engine.
 

But what's confusing me here is that you seem to be saying they're putting things into this sort of quantum state where the player doesn't know what's going on, but if I look at the rules suggestions on page 242, that doesn't appear to be the case:

Here's a cut-down take on them I found:

"SUCCESS AT A COST: ...When a character fails a roll by only 1 or 2, you can allow the character to succeed at the cost of a complication or hindrance. Such complications can run along any of the following lines... A character fails to intimidate a kobold prisoner, but the kobold reveals its secrets anyway while shrieking at the top of its lungs, alerting other nearby monsters.

DEGREES OF FAILURE: ...A character who fails to disarm a trapped chest might accidentally spring the trap if the check fails by 5 or more, whereas a lesser failure means that the trap wasn't triggered during the botched disarm attempt... Perhaps a failed Charisma (Persuasion) check means a queen won't help, whereas a failure of 5 or more means she throws you in the dungeon for your impudence.

CRITICAL SUCCESS OR FAILURE: ...rolling a 1 on a failed attempt to pick a lock might break the thieves' tools being used, and rolling a 20 on a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check might reveal an extra clue."

So I don't see how "success at a cost" makes the game worse. Can you explain that? "If you fail by 1-2 points the DM may give you a choice to succeed with a complication or hindrance". The only issue I see is the "may"? Otherwise this is a similar approach to a lot of games, including BitD, and can absolutely be factored in for.

Degrees of failure I'm also not really seeing how that's different either, apart from you knowing the fairly consistently, if you fail by 5 or more, the DM will go for a worse result than less than that. Again this seems like something you can account for.

Critical fail/success I loathe but there's no question there - you can absolutely account for that, I've played games in which this is used.

You say that unless the DM is consistent they muddy the waters, but I think that's a pretty straightforward matter, and if the DM is inconsistent, you're already playing like this to some extent, just based on his whimsy. The only real potential issue I see is if the DM didn't always apply them to rolls. Like if some of the time they did, and other times they didn't, and I mean apply them at all - like one roll a fail by 1-2 was success-at-a-cost, next time is was straight fail, and so on. That would be unhelpful, but also nearly inconceivable to me.

You also mentioned "fail forward" as one of these options and it isn't. I'm not sure why you mentioned it - isn't that just a principle of design? And one that applies to D&D even w/o page 242?
Well, because you seem to have completely misunderstood my point and instead landed at "the player understands what the outcome is after it happens, and maybe can see how the GM used one of the techniques, so your argument it increases ambiguity for the player is wrong." Except that I've been explicitly talking about the risk envelope for an action, which occurs when the player is suggesting the action to begin with. Take the intimidate the kobold example. As a player, I declare and action to intimidate the kobold into telling me secrets. When I look at the possible outcome space for this check, I can approach it from the baseline -- failure on the check means no progress. So, I make the check, and if I fail, then the kobold doesn't tell me anything. This seems fine, so I make the check, and fail by 2. However, the GM decides, at this point, to enact success at cost, and goes with the example -- the kobold tells me the secrets I wanted (maybe, honestly it could be anything here, it's all up to the GM) but does so by screaming loudly and alerting nearby kobolds! Now, the issue here is that the player had one expectation of the outcome space -- success or no progress -- but this is not what the actual outcome space was. Perhaps, had the player been aware that the kobold could, without the player being able to stop them, start screaming to alert the rest of the kobolds on a failure, they might have taken a different action or made some allowances for precautions. However, they misunderstood the possible outcome space because the GM decides to use success at a cost and decided this was the cost they wanted. These rules give the GM even more space on the resolution of tasks (and, honestly, I'd argue the GM takes this space anyway because no GM I know follows the baseline suggestions of just no progress on a failed check), and this means that the possible outcome space is even more opaque to the player, not less. It's just more permission for the GM to do whatever they want, and not a structure that improves play by informing players of the risk envelope and enabling agency to make meaningful choices.

Again, the usual response to this is an appeal to GM trust, but that's a table issue, not a system support one. The additional ways to adjudicate actions just put more on the GM decides plate, so it's not really support so much as more shuffling off onto the GM how things will work.
Oh definitely. And confusing the issue is that with PtbA at least there's still quite a bit of "ask the DM" or "the DM will tell you what to roll", which can slow down how they re-understand the system, ironically probably helps PtbA's popularity as it's less of a "system shock".
No, there isn't, this is a bad take on the system. The GM in PbtA can either say yes to an action declaration or they can challenge it with the mechanics. The mechanics absolutely tell you how they work - you do not need to ask the GThe result of that check will absolutely bind all parties to the outcomes -- no one needs to ask the GM how it works.
It's not an appeal to popularity, my point is one that you agreed above - most games take a D&D-ish approach. Hence a lot of the criticism of D&D specifically even though the the issue is a broad/general one with systems taking that general approach feels a little misguided. I guess maybe it's a point more important to me than others? Like, I see two general issues in this thread:
Nope, this is an appeal to popularity. You're saying that the issue I'm bringing up is misguided because so many popular games use it. This isn't addressing the quality of the issue, or it's arguments, it's saying that since so many popular things do it, it must be wrong. It's a classic appeal to popularity.
1) Issues largely specific to D&D which make it ill-suited to integrating or emulating genre stuff.

2) Issues broadly applicable to all DM-centric RPGs that make them ill-suited to emulating specific genre stuff

Maybe I'm the only one who cares lol. But I think it's relevant because a lot of people dismissively saying "D&D doesn't support heists and is bad at them!" would start feeling real uncomfortable if they had to say the same about Shadowrun or Cyberpunk, even though they have nigh-identical issues.
No, we wouldn't, this is a strawman. I happen to think that Cyberpunk does heists slightly better than D&D, but has the same tendencies to devolve to A-Team results due to the same issues in the systems. Still, it at least has a few better formed mechanics for heists (or capers) than D&D does, because it has a bit more codification which makes players better able to ascertain the risks of a given action. Still, it's not great, just passable. Cyberpunk's big draw is really it's setting, not it's gameplay.
Literally the argument you've made about D&D's page 242 being bad appears to apply completely to Hard-Wired Island, except maybe Hard-Wired Island is worse, because if the player fails in HWI, they have no idea if the DM will go with total failure, success at a cost, or a bargain, rather than the numbers determining it. So "right back atcha" with the "how is this a challenging statement"? If you are saying HWI is bad for the same reasons page 242 is bad, okay, but that's an interesting opinion.
I have no idea what Hard-Wired Island is, I cannot speak to it. Forgive me if I'm not taking your gloss here as definitive enough to form an opinion.

Page 242 is not bad. I told you this was a bad take above, but you seem to be wedded to persisting with it. I'm saying that it doesn't actually provide more support for "capers" because it causes as much harm to that goal and any assistance is provides. Largely, this is because it just puts more on the GM decides plate, making it not support, but more idiosyncratic for a given table.
 

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