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D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

If you're misunderstanding the rules and how the game works on a basic level, then I don't think it counts as "The Oberoni Fallacy", because otherwise that's just hysterical mate.

There are really three possibilities here:

1) You got really unlucky and played with multiple DMs who have decided, for reasons unknown, that every failure is as you put it "a catastrophe" (your words, not mine).

2) That actually didn't happen and you're just really overstating things for effect. This happens all the time on the internet.

3) Space aliens?! Sorry ME:LE just finished unpacking and my train of thought has derailed.

And you are being martyr! I don't hate on you for it but it's pretty funny. :)
This leaves out the possibility that @Hussar's experience is the expected one and it's just the rest of us who are really lucky.

I will note that, in most editions of DnD having a party that's good at heists/capers/whatever (stealthy, social, lots of skills and utility spells) is usually in opposition to having a party optimized for combat. 5e is the exception, with it's range of charisma classes (that synergize really well) and dex-based AC being nearly as good as armor-based AC, so stealthy paladins aren't an odd duck anymore.
 

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Yeah, I don't honestly understand the thing with 'lair actions'. They belong as just basic statblock stuff. Either you are encountering it in the lair, or probably not encountering it at all. And if your story is set up so the encounter is somewhere else, then you still want that stuff. 4e used 'Terrain Powers', which are basically exactly the same thing, but because they are part of a given location they're a lot more flexible in practice. Not being tagged to the 'lair' specifically they become more like just a codified trick or something like that, but can also represent things like magical 'traps' and such (though there are ALSO traps, which overlap with them to a degree).
Oh I like the idea of lairs actions, I just think dragons ancient dragons should have them always. I disagree that you always fight a creature in its lair and idea a creature is stronger in its lair is interesting to me. One of the reasons I just give them to dragons is I rarely have dragon fight in its lair.
Why wouldn't it basically be the same thing, I mean legendary actions and lair actions are all just 'actions', it hardly matters what they're called. Giving them to groups is cool. 4e had some monsters which coded that kind of thing into their stat blocks, but nothing more formal.
I had a typo, when I said lair action I meant Legendary Action. If you checked out the links my mistake would be obvious. By RAW, lair actions are definitely different, in several ways, then Legendary Actions, but you don't have to threat that way if you don't want to.
 

This leaves out the possibility that @Hussar's experience is the expected one and it's just the rest of us who are really lucky.

I will note that, in most editions of DnD having a party that's good at heists/capers/whatever (stealthy, social, lots of skills and utility spells) is usually in opposition to having a party optimized for combat. 5e is the exception, with it's range of charisma classes (that synergize really well) and dex-based AC being nearly as good as armor-based AC, so stealthy paladins aren't an odd duck anymore.

Its not super difficult to do at a minimal cost in PF2e, either.
 

This leaves out the possibility that @Hussar's experience is the expected one and it's just the rest of us who are really lucky.

I will note that, in most editions of DnD having a party that's good at heists/capers/whatever (stealthy, social, lots of skills and utility spells) is usually in opposition to having a party optimized for combat. 5e is the exception, with it's range of charisma classes (that synergize really well) and dex-based AC being nearly as good as armor-based AC, so stealthy paladins aren't an odd duck anymore.
I’ve just never encountered a DM that would respond to a failed stealth check in a way other than letting the PC make a check to salvage a bad situation.
 

Its not super difficult to do at a minimal cost in PF2e, either.
I've only played a few sessions, but it doesn't seem like PF2 incentivizes this so much as allows for it. So you'd need to know that your gm or AP is going to favor these elements to reach for them. In 5e they're already close to optimal if not actually optimal.
 

I’ve just never encountered a DM that would respond to a failed stealth check in a way other than letting the PC make a check to salvage a bad situation.
I have - I generally stop using skills with those dms (if I even keep playing with them), but it's a thing that can happen. Which is more common is unknown (and unless you got surveys to cite, it's all anecdotes.)

I will note that I see it much less often recently, which I attribute to better dm advice on the interwebs.
 

I’ve just never encountered a DM that would respond to a failed stealth check in a way other than letting the PC make a check to salvage a bad situation.
I've seen, it and, to be honest, even been that DM in my younger days. I've learned from my mistakes though. However, I have never been a big fan of save or die mechanics and 4e and 5e have moved away from those. I look at general ability checks similar to the medusa's petrifying gaze:

Petrifying Gaze. When a creature that can see the medusa's eyes starts its turn within 30 ft. of the medusa, the medusa can force it to make a DC 14 Constitution saving throw if the medusa isn't incapacitated and can see the creature. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the creature is instantly petrified. Otherwise, a creature that fails the save begins to turn to stone and is restrained. The restrained creature must repeat the saving throw at the end of its next turn, becoming petrified on a failure or ending the effect on a success.

If you think of ability checks the same way, it gives you a lot more flexibility.
 

So this thread, and more specifically @Hussar 's story about the 3 DM's he played under, inspired me to go back and re-read the DMG section for 5e on Ability checks... and I have to say I was surprised at just how much it did to set out the expected practices of 5e... which contrary to many people's assumptions don't appear to be... do whatever you want (though like any game the DM is free to ignore advice, examples, practices, etc.). I decided to pull excerpts (with commentary) from the DMG below to highlight what I am talking about...

Using Ability Scores...

When to roll
1. When a player wants to do something it's often appropriate to let the attempt succeed without a roll

2. Only call for a roll if there is a meaningful consequence for failure

3. When deciding whether to use a roll ask the following questions
a. Is a task so easy and free of conflict and stress that there should be no chance of failure
b. Is a task so inaapropriate or impossible that it can't work

4. If the answer to both of these questions is no then some type of roll is appropriate


So above we have the process by which a DM should decide to say yes to an action... say no to an action or roll the dice.



Ability Check:
A test to see whether a character succeeds at a task that he or she has decided to attempt

The DMG defines what a check represents... specifically the chance to succeed or fail at a single task. Which in turn implies that any action being rolled for should be framed as a single discrete task that has success state and a failure state.

Multiple Ability Checks

  • If the only real cost is time yes (a character spending ten times the normal amount of time auto-succeeds at the task)
  • If not the circumstances or approach must be changed to attempt again (with a harder DC at the DM's discretion)

Contests
-Use a contest if a character attempts something that either directly foils or is directly opposed by another creature's efforts
  • Instead of a DC ability checks are compared to each other
  • DM picks the ability that each creature must use

Above we are given the practices for using multiple ability checks and contests as opposed to a regular ability check. Of particular interest is the fact that if players can come up with a new approach or change their circumstances they can roll again. Personally I don't think many DM's enact this specific practice


Difficulty Class
- Think of how difficult a task is and then pick the associated DC from the typical DC's table

- Most people can accomplish a task of DC 5 (Very Easy) with little chance of failure, if a roll is deemed necessary a task usually will not fall into this category. Unless there are unusual circumstances this should be an auto-success

-If not ask yourself if a task's difficulty is easy moderate or hard...If the only DC's you ever use are 10/15/20 your game will be fine

-A DC 10 task is accomplished 50% of the time w/attribute 10 and +0 prof bonus

-You can use a higher DC than 20 but caution and level consideration is advised

So the first thing here is it really brings home how easy it is to determine success rates for an ability check in D&D 5e due to nearly every +1 easily translating into 5% and using DC's that increase in 5 point intervals. But more importantly there are practices laid out above for determining the DC and while one can go beyond them in both the range of the DC and rolling for the DC 5 the game takes time to caution against it except in special circumstances.

Applying Adv/Disadv
-Advantage when: Circumstances provide an edge, An aspect of the environment contribues to success, player shows creativityor cunning in attempting or describing a task, previous actions improve success.
-Disadv when: Circumstances hinder success, an aspect of the environment hinders success, some aspect of a plan or descriotion makes success less likely.

Resolution & Consequences
-As DM you determine the consequences of attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws

-In most cases doing so is straightforward: When an attack hits, it causes damage...when a creature fails a saving throw, the creature suffers a harmful effect...when an ability check equals or exceeds the DC, the check succeeds.

- As a DM you have a variety of flourishes and approaches you can take when adjudicating success and failure to make things a little less black and white
a. Success at a Cost: When a character fails a roll by 1 or 2 you can allow the character to succeed at a cost. When you introduce costs such as these try to make them obstacles and setbacks that change the nature of the adventuring situation. In exchange for success, characters must consider new ways of facing he challenge
b. Degrees of Failuer: Sometimes a failed ability check has different consequences depending on the degree of failure

-Critical Success and Failure : Increase the impact of success or failre on a 1 or 20


Practices for determining advantage and disadvantage as well as practices for determining consequences of rolls with some optional ways to expand on it.


OPTIONAL RULES

Variant: Automatic Success
-A character automatically succeeds on a check with a DC less than or equal to the relevant ability score -5
- If a characters proficiency bonus applies to a check (through skills or tools) they automatically succedd at a DC 10 or less, at 11th level they auto-succeed on DC 15 or less

Also I included this rule because its optional but it does seem to address the general competency complaint some have about the d20...at least when it comes to tasks that should be relatively easy for heroic characters.

One thing noticeably lacking is a closed resolution system for multiple tasks... On the one hand I don't know if it's necessarily needed... On the other hand I think for those that want it... that the complex trap rules in Xanathar's would be a good basis for something similar to the 4e skill challenges... though I also think the skill challenges from 4e could easily be adapted to 5e.
 

The one thing I would point out here is that it's very easy to run D&D this way because (and doubling back) unlike Blades there is no real guidance to the DM as to what a failure actually means.

But part of the point of 4e skill challenges (which could have done with more time in development and better explanations) is precisely so this doesn't happen. So complex plans take more than one failure and that there's time to turn the whole thing around.
Right, but it is legitimate to point out that the sore point with SCs was the whole need to entirely overcome the idea of 'mechanics as simulation', you have to understand that the SC state is ENTIRELY AN ABSTRACTION. It also means that the individual checks involved are at least having their 'left foot' in that abstraction too. Yes, you make the Stealth check when you declare "I try to sneak past the guard" in response to a specific fictional position (IE there is a guard at the entrance). One thing that 4e SCs by default lack is a mechanism to allow for trade-offs. So, for example what, fictionally, are the responses to a guard? You could blackjack him, you could sneak past, you could distract him with a social ploy, you could distract him with a noise or something, you could bribe him. Lets say you decide to toss a stone 'over there' so he leaves his post momentarily. This should increase his alertness, right? So, 4e doesn't have a way to model that, which is one element where the SC is a bit deficient (though you can certainly handle it). However, this lack didn't HELP, and none of the examples really digs into this.

In fact, even RC-grade SCs don't really entirely address this, explicitly. You, as the GM, can certainly do things like color a hard check as "well, NOW you need to make a hard check to sneak past, but at least it is possible!" Also Secondary skills might best be explained as 'set up' where they don't add to successes, but they enable a fiction change that is favorable. Another way that works, which HoML uses, is the 'Right of Exchange' where you can fictionally construct a skill exchange. A simple example is the Wizard casts a ritual that uses Arcana to achieve an effect that would normally require some other Skill, like Nature or whatever. You thus pass a check to invoke that, and then you can use your better skill to progress the actual challenge.
 

A significant part of rulings over rules is an implied bias towards consistency in your rulings.

Historically the line of challenge oriented RPGs that take a lot of play principles from tabletop war gaming (of which D&D is the prime example) have strongly prioritized consisting rulings. When you have something like stealth and ambushes in most typical games the players being ambushed is much more likely to lead to a fail state then players do ambushing. Together that often means games are skewed towards detection because the expectation is that the rules will be applied to PCs and NPCs in the same way. After all if an NPC failed their Stealth check you would expect that means the PCs spot them.

For games that do assume consistent application I do very much favor layered stealth states because it makes more gameable on both sides without making a single failure or success catastrophic.
 

Into the Woods

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