D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[dave2008]

The early writers of cyberpunk completely failed to see that the Internet was mostly going to be about pr0n, but we still treat cyberpunk and its tropes as part of the genre rather than some sort infallible reality or truth about "cyberspace."

I'm sorry I don't get the analogy. Perhaps because I have only very surface level of cyberpunk?

I think that the same is true for cosmic horror. It's less about whether we do go insane or not from the incomprehensible, but, rather, it's a world in which we do and plays into that fear of the alien and unknown. Otherwise, you may as well be complaining about how unrealistic D&D's approach to magic and world-building is, but you seem perfectly willing to gloss over that.

I'm not trying to make an argument regarding reality, though I realize how my statements could be interrupted that way. What I am saying is that when I want to reproduce the fiction I have read set within the "Cthulhu Mythos," I don't feel sanity mechanics are necessary to recreate that fiction. I am trying recreate a fiction* I experienced when reading HPL's work, not reality.

*Now, I can't loose sight of the fact that my own understand and knowledge or reality affects how I experienced the fiction. But I can't escape it either.

 

[Campbell]

We can role-play through any situation without rules, distribution of authority, or game texts of any sorts. I know because I have done a bunch of it both online and in person. That makes what we can theoretically do or what is needed a poor prism to see RPG design through. If we only view games through that prism then we would all be freeforming.

A better prism I think would be to view games through what are they doing for us that we could not achieve as easily on our own. What sort of roles, procedures, and mechanics reliably produce the sort of play we are looking for with the least cognitive load? What unique value does this game bring?

 

[prabe]

I'm not trying to make an argument regarding realize, though I realize how my statements could be interrupted that way. What I am saying is that when I want to reproduce the fiction I have read set within the "Cthulhu Mythos," I don't feel sanity mechanics are necessary to recreate that fiction. I am trying recreate a fiction* I experienced when reading HPL's work, not reality.

*Now, I can't loose sight of the fact that my own understand and knowledge or reality affects how I experienced the fiction. But I can't escape it either.

I think this is a relevant and kinda important point. Anyone who writes (or hacks) a game to support a kind of story--Cosmic Horror/HPL is an example, here--is going to be doing it to reflect what they think are the important bits of that kind of story, as well as what they think makes a good TRPG.

I bolded that last bit, because there may be things one feels are important to a kind of story that one doesn't think make for a good TRPG (or are at least not to one's tastes in a TRPG). For instance, CoC leans pretty hard into the no-win scenario aspect of the genre; so does Cthulhu Dark, from what I can tell. As a player I loathe no-win scenarios, so it's probably not a surprise that as a GM I don't set out to put PCs into them; anything I'd put together for the genre probably wouldn't lean into that aspect of it--though, to be clear, it's a part of the genre.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I don't really get this.

In many RPGs PCs are likely to die if they fail a climbing check or balance check and the drop is a long one; but many of those same RPGs have pretty non-granular rules for climbing and balancing.

These are also games that for the most part, don't expect you to be doing those very often. If they were more central to the game's play-cycle, I'd be willing to bet they'd go into them in more detail, too.

And combat doesn't have to be deadly - in fact as versions of D&D have increased the granularity of the combat rules they've also increased the possibility for combat loss without dying (4e has the most of both of these).

This is true--superhero games are a poster child for this--but while it does mean that you're unlikely to lose the character permanently, it still means a one-shot takeout is liable to leave you out of play for a while.

 

[Aldarc]

As an aside, I still have not picked up Fate's Fate of Cthulhu. I'm interested in its take on the fiction, because (i) the general observation that Fate generally doesn't do horror games* and (ii) it apparently took a different spin on the Cthulhu mythos inspired by the Terminator franchise. Basically, you are one-way time travelers going back in time trying to stop your cosmic old god apocalyptic future from happening, but the time-travel process as well as old one technology and magic incurs gradual corruption. (Evil Hat went with corruption rather than insanity to avoid harmful depictions of mental illness, madness, sanity, etc.) There is meant to be a glimmer of hope about stalling/changing the future, even if you fall to corruption in the process.

* There is a Fate Horror Toolkit, but I haven't looked deeply into it yet either.

I'm sorry I don't get the analogy. Perhaps because I have only very surface level of cyberpunk?

The internet as cyberpunk imagined =! the internet per reality. Likewise, the incomprehensible universe as Lovecraft imagine =! the incomprehensible universe per reality.

I'm not trying to make an argument regarding realize, though I realize how my statements could be interrupted that way. What I am saying is that when I want to reproduce the fiction I have read set within the "Cthulhu Mythos," I don't feel sanity mechanics are necessary to recreate that fiction. I am trying recreate a fiction* I experienced when reading HPL's work, not reality.

*Now, I can't loose sight of the fact that my own understand and knowledge or reality affects how I experienced the fiction. But I can't escape it either.

Sure, but when trying to recreate the fiction of it in D&D, it seems like there is a pretty big tonal difference in how players are assumed to approach problems. The lethality and insanity in CoC isn't necessarily meant to replicate Lovecraft perfectly, but it is, according to Sandy Peterson, meant to put a little caution into the players such that combat isn't the primary modus operandi of play. In contrast, combat and spells are the primary problem-solving tools that D&D 5e provides players. Or in the words of Linus: "That's what D&D is about, Charlie Brown." You can deal with cosmic horror in your D&D games, but I don't think anyone would be surprised if the players treat that cosmic horror like an '80s action hero or a MCU superhero would: "How can we punch that thing in the face while making a marketable quip?"

 

[Arilyn]

To clear thing up:

1. I do not put any credence into HPL's view of the universe. I personally find the vast universe amazing and kind of comforting. Cosmic horror disagrees with me. I prefer more optimism in my gaming, so I don't generally do Cthulhu.

2. Many heroes in Lovecraft's stories survive intact, but as I said most of them do not continue adventuring.

3. You can skip insanity in cosmic horror, but it will alter the genre, like doing a gothic romance in a bright and sunny suburb. Might be an interesting take, but definitely a different flavour.

4. And finally, scientists are human. Being human, they have not always used science ethically. But knowledge of how things work and why are needed to make things better. Otherwise, we'll be flailing around making guesses in the dark. And there are tentacles in the darkness.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

We can role-play through any situation without rules, distribution of authority, or game texts of any sorts. I know because I have done a bunch of it both online and in person. That makes what we can theoretically do or what is needed a poor prism to see RPG design through. If we only view games through that prism then we would all be freeforming.

A better prism I think would be to view games through what are they doing for us that we could not achieve as easily on our own. What sort of roles, procedures, and mechanics reliably produce the sort of play we are looking for with the least cognitive load? What unique value does this game bring?

This is essentially what I’ve been saying.

If BITD doesn’t bring a gameplay experience I and my group prefer, but 5e with some elements stolen from caper-oriented games does (and it does), then for my group 5e is the better fantasy heist game.

The fact that someone else has never had a caper be successful in D&D is completely irrelevant to that.

I think this is a relevant and kinda important point. Anyone who writes (or hacks) a game to support a kind of story--Cosmic Horror/HPL is an example, here--is going to be doing it to reflect what they think are the important bits of that kind of story, as well as what they think makes a good TRPG.

This, exactly.

I bolded that last bit, because there may be things one feels are important to a kind of story that one doesn't think make for a good TRPG (or are at least not to one's tastes in a TRPG). For instance, CoC leans pretty hard into the no-win scenario aspect of the genre; so does Cthulhu Dark, from what I can tell. As a player I loathe no-win scenarios, so it's probably not a surprise that as a GM I don't set out to put PCs into them; anything I'd put together for the genre probably wouldn't lean into that aspect of it--though, to be clear, it's a part of the genre.

Exactly.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Well, I would make other-language literature references if I knew any other languages!

That’s never stopped me from making allusions to literature I’ve never read and only dimly understand!

Just like Enkidu in the Epic of Gilgamesh!

 

[prabe]

If BITD doesn’t bring a gameplay experience I and my group prefer, but 5e with some elements stolen from caper-oriented games does (and it does), then for my group 5e is the better fantasy heist game.

And to bring back in the issue in the OP (lo these many pages ago): If someone is running a D&D 5E campaign, and they see a caper coming, and they ask for advice on running it, they're looking for hacks or techniques or other tips for doing it in 5E, and telling them they should play another game is ... at best unhelpful.

 

[Imaro]

Necessary? I don't know. Necessity is a bit too strong a phrasing. Again, YMMV, but it does feel somewhat unsatisfactory and kinda just there. I'm not sure if it has been playtested either. I don't recall Madness/Sanity rules in the D&D Next playtest. It only pops up three times in Curse of Strahd: two of which are about deciding what form of madness NPCs have.

I'm not sure how to address this, again I can't argue you shouldn't or don't feel that way. Can I ask whether your feelings are based on actually playing and using the rules?

Do you use or have you used these Madness and Sanity rules?

Yes, they are pretty much staples in the type of fantasy I like to run think dark/horror fantasy in the vein of Darkest Dungeon, Bloodborne, etc... While not Lovecraftian horror per se... it strikes man of the same notes.

For transparency sake I will state that I have a few other houserules... around vices and virtues that characters have and how indulging in your vice(s) and/or exhibiting your virtue(s) can rebuild your sanity (again inspired by Darkest Dungeon).

It's admittedly an informal sense, but I don't hear about people here and elsewhere talking about 5e really engaging these rules ever. Feats, spells, and things get engaged in discussion constantly. Madness? Not so much. Silence is sometimes more damning than controversy. It means people generally don't even care enough about it to engage or talk about it. The latest ENWorld thread with "madness" in the title about the madness rules in 5E was from 2014. Searching for "madness rules," I've found only a handful of people who say they have used it. There is a short thread last year about the Sanity stat; it was pretty disparaging of it.

I would think silence means those using them have pretty much got them working the way they want... I used them but I felt no need to come on here and ask for help, they're simple, they get the job done and they are not hard to grasp. Honestly I'm not sure what advice I would need.