D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[doctorbadwolf]

That's a reasonable question, and one I'd normally suggest you pose to the OP, but I gather there's some Ignoring going on, which means you can't. I will say that I always understood the OP the way I said, and the OP has responded to indicate I understood them correctly.

I genuinely wish I could give you a better answer than that. Sorry.

I unignored them. But yes you are correct.

No one could give him an example that he would not go on to expand his argument to show that 5e could also do it.

Quotes of this are shown by me and others - Not that I expect anyone to dig back through this mess! But they are there if you go and look.

As Dave pointed out, this bears no relation to what you quoted.

I would be more than happy to have that much more nuanced conversation. I just do not think it's all that useful to have it in a context where we are elevating one game that obviously has its share of genre emulation built in and reinforcing negative stereotypes about other games as being more limited.

I agree. I don’t think anyone here is elevating one game or reinforcing any negative stereotypes of other games.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That's a reasonable question, and one I'd normally suggest you pose to the OP, but I gather there's some Ignoring going on, which means you can't. I will say that I always understood the OP the way I said, and the OP has responded to indicate I understood them correctly.

I genuinely wish I could give you a better answer than that. Sorry.

I'm not going to say its impossible, but the combination of the title of the thread and the fact the first post has been edited at least once leaves me to question whether the goalposts have been relocated along the way.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Except the poster noted they are using the narrower argument in the OP. They did not fall back to the bailey - they started there.

For reference:

The OP's viewpoint from the beginning was the narrow perspective.

It isn't that clear at all actually: What is the title of this thread? "D&D Compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs" If the OP had no interest in hearing about how those games might work better/differently AT SOME LEVEL then why the title? And if the title should have been "I Hate it When People Suggest Games Other Than 5e" then I'm not sure what the point of this thread was at all. Is it supposed to be just a 5e bro-fest where we all slap each other on the back because we are so smart for never using any other RPG? I don't think so...

Thus we MUST conclude that it is IN SCOPE to make comments of the nature of "Game X would do genre Y better than 5e" for at least some reasonable definitions of 'better'. It seems like the response to those comments is pretty consistently "but we don't want to hear about any other RPGs, stick to discussing 5e" ????? I'm just not getting it. What am I allowed to say in this thread according to you all?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure, but if we cannot come up with ANY objective evaluation criteria, and at least some of the people in any discussion on this topic won't ever explore past "this particular game is simply the thing I prefer, that's the end of the discussion" then what are we discussing? It feels like the thread began and ended on post #1... At least part of the time.

Why on earth would you want “objective” criteria for an inherently subjective activity?

Sorry, but I’m not even willing to accept that sort of thing for art criticism, I’m certainly not going to for talking about gaming preferences and satisfying gameplay experiences.

What I’m happy to do is have discussions about how different games evoke different things, as long as that discussion isn’t being used to try and tell me that I’m wrong about my direct personal experiences, or absurd BS that amounts to “less than strictly prescriptive game rules means a game doesn’t have rules”.

I don’t care about arguments where someone is just trying to find an example of a thing that I won’t see a way to do in D&D. That isn’t a discussion it’s just an excuse for someone to try and “school” someone else.

But a discussion about how specific mechanics can help create a particular gameplay experience sounds great.

 

[Campbell]

@doctorbadwolf

When you position D&D in contrast to bespoke games as if it was not one that's elevating it. The narrow or focused indie game myth is harmful because it implies that they are more specialized versions of the sort of play you see in the adventure gaming space. When you play into it with that bespoke language you are reinforcing the idea that a typical D&D contains everything a typical Burning Wheel game contains. It provides the impression the D&D (well 5e) is especially flexible.

If you are in fact making that argument (that 5e is especially flexible) you should really make it and we can hash some stuff out. If you are not intending to make that argument we should probably frame things pretty differently.

I'm trying not to be indignant here, but the focused game thing is a really a big deal to me. It feels dismissive of the unique value other games bring to the table.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'm trying not to be indignant here, but the focused game thing is a really a big deal to me. It feels dismissive of the unique value other games bring to the table.

See, I don't find that intrinsically objectionable. It only becomes objectionable when one assumes more bespoke (to use the term at hand) games are more narrow without also being deeper in the areas focused on. That seems a perfectly reasonable trade-off.

(Mind you, I don't find D&D nearly as broad as some people seem to think it is. As someone earlier said, it seems well set up to run D&D style fantasy, and can competently handle a few branches off that, but that's hardly what I'd class as broad).

 

[prabe]

I'm not going to say its impossible, but the combination of the title of the thread and the fact the first post has been edited at least once leaves me to question whether the goalposts have been relocated along the way.

Maybe. I assure I don't believe I have done so.

If you are in fact making that argument (that 5e is especially flexible) you should really make it and we can hash some stuff out. If you are not intending to make that argument we should probably frame things pretty differently.

I'm trying not to be indignant here, but the focused game thing is a really a big deal to me. It feels dismissive of the unique value other games bring to the table.

What I will say is that I have found 5E to be more than flexible enough for the campaigns I've been running. BitD seems to me as though it wants to generate a somewhat more specific range of stories--stories about scoundrels looking to work their way up through a criminal underground in a steampunkish fantasy city. Leaving aside capers or heists or whatever, and mechanics for such, it'd be possible to set up a 5E campaign to tell stories in that range. Those stories would come out as different stories, because the games work differently, but they'd be in the same range. BitD specifically does not seem to be set up to generate the types of stories I prefer to have emerge in my 5E games--stories about heroes, and about why they're heroes, and about what heroism means to them.

Opinions on all the above may vary, of course.

(Mind you, I don't find D&D nearly as broad as some people seem to think it is. As someone earlier said, it seems well set up to run D&D style fantasy, and can competently handle a few branches off that, but that's hardly what I'd class as broad).

D&D style fantasy, D&D style horror, D&D style mystery, D&D style romance, D&D style Sci-Fi, you name it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It isn't that clear at all actually: What is the title of this thread? "D&D Compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs" If the OP had no interest in hearing about how those games might work better/differently AT SOME LEVEL then why the title? And if the title should have been "I Hate it When People Suggest Games Other Than 5e" then I'm not sure what the point of this thread was at all. Is it supposed to be just a 5e bro-fest where we all slap each other on the back because we are so smart for never using any other RPG? I don't think so...

Thus we MUST conclude that it is IN SCOPE to make comments of the nature of "Game X would do genre Y better than 5e" for at least some reasonable definitions of 'better'. It seems like the response to those comments is pretty consistently "but we don't want to hear about any other RPGs, stick to discussing 5e" ????? I'm just not getting it. What am I allowed to say in this thread according to you all?

Whatever you want, generally, within the rules.

More seriously, the point of the thread was initially to discuss a matter of ettiquette, and explore why some folks feel the need to go full “you know there are games other than D&D, right!?” When someone asks for advice about doing something in their D&D campaign.

Ive said probably 2 dozen times at this point that talking about other games and what they do to evoke a given thing is great. My only negative responses have been to people accusing me of things I haven’t done, or people telling me my experiences are either false (pretty much calling me a liar) or that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Maybe. I assure I don't believe I have done so.

I wasn't referring to you.

D&D style fantasy, D&D style horror, D&D style mystery, D&D style romance, D&D style Sci-Fi, you name it.

I see the smiley, but I think I'm going to suggest some of those are, effectively either contradictions in terms, or have the cart before the horse (by the time you've hacked on D&D editions enough to make a recognizable SF game I think you've got a different, albeit related game, and to get "D&D style horror" you have to at least focus on action-horror and largely exclude everything else; its much easier to just get D&D with some horror elements).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

@doctorbadwolf

When you position D&D in contrast to bespoke games as if it was not one that's elevating it. The narrow or focused indie game myth is harmful because it implies that they are more specialized versions of the sort of play you see in the adventure gaming space. When you play into it with that bespoke language you are reinforcing the idea that a typical D&D contains everything a typical Burning Wheel game contains. It provides the impression the D&D (well 5e) is especially flexible.

If you are in fact making that argument (that 5e is especially flexible) you should really make it and we can hash some stuff out. If you are not intending to make that argument we should probably frame things pretty differently.

I'm trying not to be indignant here, but the focused game thing is a really a big deal to me. It feels dismissive of the unique value other games bring to the table.

Blades in the dark is literally purpose built to tell a fairly narrow range of stories very well. That isn’t a bad thing. It is very well designed, and every component works together to deliver a particular type of experience. It is, by definition, bespoke.

5e can only be called the same if you view all fantasy adventure as the same thing, in which case we just disagree about how broad fantasy adventure is.

It is also built to be more broad than Blades is built to be, as shown by things like having multiple variant rules to modify gameplay, and being more open ended in many facets of the game.

I don’t agree that what I’ve said implies that other games are just a narrow slice of what D&D does, particularly since the premise includes needing to add mechanics to 5e in order to make it do different things well.