D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[dave2008]

OIC. Just went back and reread the post. Umm, was that really not clear when I mentioned Jason and Freddy as well? Dracula was largely unkillable through most of the story - until he comes to London anyway. And certainly the pop culture version, which is much more than just the novel version, fits with what I said. That seems needlessly nitpicky to pull out a single bit like that and ignore the larger point.

My point was the villain is often killable in horror, like Dracula, and Jason, and Freddy. Or the xenomorph in Alien, or Annie in Misery or the Kothoga in Relic, or Bruce in Jaws or many , many more.

I was not trying to be nitpicky. I think the premise that horror is predictaed on an unkillable villain is false. I just used Dracula as an example because not only was he killed, but he is hunted down and killed.

 

[dave2008]

Curious: what if any changes have you made, either in tone or to the ruleset, to achieve this Middle-Earth tone?

I will have to get back to you, typing on my tablet is a pain. I'm taking a break for a bit. I will just say, when I think Middle earth I think of the middle earth in the hobbit more than LotR

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'm not sure what your talking about I, I didn't read the Lovecraft life entry I read the cosmic horror entry. Maybe a read it to quickly as I don't know what your talking about.

Yes, it does seem like you didn't fully read the article as this is clearly discussed about using the list to identify Cosmic Horror. That's not a big deal, but that you're claiming the article supports your claims.

 

[Imaro]

Ok, just to clarify things a bit.

Why the Madness (edit to add - AND SANITY) Mechanics didn't Work For Me.

Context: I was not running a Cosmic Horror game. It was a Primeval Thule game, so there were pulp horror elements but, it wasn't the main thrust of the game. Think Conan, not Dunwich Horror.

I introduced the mechanics to the players. The players immediately realized that the mechanics were very bolted on and did not interact with any other part of the system. The mechanics are basically, "See something really scary, make your Sanity check. Fail enough of those, you get a temporary insanity. Fail enough times after that, and you go permanently insane".

The players and I realized that there was absolutely no context with these mechanics. 1st level or 15th, you had the same chances of failure (more or less). Didn't matter your class, background, level or anything else. Everyone had the same (again, more or less, certainly within about 10-15% either way) chances of failure. So, sure, the first time you meet that horrible tentacled thing, you make your saving throw. The third time you meet yet another tentacled thing, you are still making the same saving throw. By 15th level, you've literally met dozens of tentacled things, but, you make the same saving throw at the same odds of failure.

There was no way for the players to mitigate any of this. You can't get "better" at these checks. Which makes it stand out very starkly from the rest of the game. A 15th level barbarian who has faced dragons without flinching suddenly goes insane from seeing a gibbering mouther, even though his grandmother is more scary.

The players, immediately realizing they had zero input into the system, became totally passive/agressive about it. "Oh noes, another tentacled horror. Whatever shall I so. Oh, look, I failed my saving throw. Oh noes, I'm insane now. Whoopee!"

There's nothing for the players at all in the system. It's just a thing that sits there, like a lump. It doesn't impact any role play (having a lower or higher Sanity score doesn't mean anything, other than it's slightly easier or harder to make a saving throw). It only interacts with this single element - seeing something scary/experiencing something scary. There's no integration. There's not even the slightest attempt to explain what anything actually means. If I have a 15 strength and you have an 8 strength, we can roleplay that. Anyone can roleplay that. But, what does a 15 sanity score mean? What does an 8 mean? It's just numbers on the sheet.

So, yes, that's why I say the mechanics are a failure. They are bolted on lump of meaninglessness that just serve to annoy the players and add nothing to the table.

Wouldn't you be able to raise the attribute if you wanted and thus raise the check/save. That said...isn't this how all attributes work in general (I realize there might be specific cases of class abilities but...how many, if any, are there that raise an attribute)? You either raise them through your Ability Improvement Score feature or a feat which uses your ability improvement feature?

EDIT: Also I don't have my books with me but I don't remember there being a number breakdown for each ability score describing what it equates to or means... is this a thing I missed? I thought there was a general description of what that ability is and that was it.

EDIT 2: I know this is probably a little late but I'm curious did you ever pair it with a skill? The rules for sanity I believe said it could be substituted for Intelligence for checks and saves (well it wouldn't matter either way for saves but it would for checks)

 

[Lanefan]

I was not trying to be nitpicky. I think the premise that horror is predictaed on an unkillable villain is false.

Not an unkillable villain, rather an unknown and unknowable villain - or one hidden in plain sight - is what can make horror work well.

This is way easier to pull off in a movie or novel than at a tabletop. I mean, even SW-I Phantom Menace was built on this premise of the unknown villain hiding in plain sight; and though the execution was more or less completely butchered by Lucas et al, the underlying story premise had the potential to be brilliant.

 

[Hussar]

My point was the villain is often killable in horror, like Dracula, and Jason, and Freddy. Or the xenomorph in Alien, or Annie in Misery or the Kothoga in Relic, or Bruce in Jaws or many , many more.

I was not trying to be nitpicky. I think the premise that horror is predictaed on an unkillable villain is false. I just used Dracula as an example because not only was he killed, but he is hunted down and killed.

Well, yeah, a lot of horror has kinda/sorta happy endings. So, yes, in the end the villain is killed. Of course, by that time, the score is usually Monster 88 Heroes 1.

But, ok, instead of unkillable, how about REALLY damn hard to kill. The Xenomorph in Alien kills everyone except the final character who only just manages to kill it. Note, I wouldn't peg Aliens as horror, but, rather, more of an action movie. I think the point does stand.

 

[Hussar]

Wouldn't you be able to raise the attribute if you wanted and thus raise the check/save. That said...isn't this how all attributes work in general (I realize there might be specific cases of class abilities but...how many, if any, are there that raise an attribute)? You either raise them through your Ability Improvement Score feature or a feat which uses your ability improvement feature?

EDIT: Also I don't have my books with me but I don't remember there being a number breakdown for each ability score describing what it equates to or means... is this a thing I missed? I thought there was a general description of what that ability is and that was it.

EDIT 2: I know this is probably a little late but I'm curious did you ever pair it with a skill? The rules for sanity I believe said it could be substituted for Intelligence for checks and saves (well it wouldn't matter either way for saves but it would for checks)

Nope. Classes can be proficient in saving throws, making attributes only part of a saving throw. Yes, you could put your +2 that you get every 4 levels into Sanity, but, let's be honest here, that's not going to happen. No feats tie in with the Sanity score. And, as far as number breakdowns for ability score meanings, no , there isn't specific ones, and obviously, there is some disagreement over the exact meanings of scores. But, by and large, it's not really a problem. We know, for example, that an 18 Int character is smarter than an 8 one. But, an 18 Sanity character isn't "more sane" than a 8 Sanity character. There's no such thing in the game. It's binary. You're either sane or afflicted with an insanity. Again, no gradiation.

Oh, good, we'll pair Sanity with Int skills? So, being sane makes me more know more about history? Huh?

Again, none of this would actually make the players care about something they have no control over and no way to mitigate.

 

[dave2008]

Yes, it does seem like you didn't fully read the article as this is clearly discussed about using the list to identify Cosmic Horror. That's not a big deal, but that you're claiming the article supports your claims.

OK I read it again (I didn't see the answer "no" part before as I stopped after the descriptions) and I was correct, we played Cosmic Horror. I answered yes to all of them (with one caveat to #4) except the ones that did not apply (if the antagonist is mechanical, undead, or draconic). Thanks for the clarification!

 

[dave2008]

Well, yeah, a lot of horror has kinda/sorta happy endings. So, yes, in the end the villain is killed. Of course, by that time, the score is usually Monster 88 Heroes 1.

But, ok, instead of unkillable, how about REALLY damn hard to kill. The Xenomorph in Alien kills everyone except the final character who only just manages to kill it. Note, I wouldn't peg Aliens as horror, but, rather, more of an action movie. I think the point does stand.

Amazing! We can agree on something!

 

[Imaro]

Oh, good, we'll pair Sanity with Int skills? So, being sane makes me more know more about history? Huh?

Eh I'm going to assume you're not really looking for discussion around this or suggestions on how it might have been used better in your game. That's cool ill no longer really engage with you about this since we both have our experiences and opinions and I don't see them changing.