D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Imaro]

Uhhuh. I mean, sure, only the mad understand, but that's not good enough. You're arguing that the only way the mad understand was that they were sane, and thet used this sanity to learn, and them went insane after they learned. Now, they can't learn more because they aren't sane enough to do so. Right? That's how it works according to your argument.

Again show me where it's clearly stated in the tropes...

 

[Imaro]

Uhhuh. I mean, sure, only the mad understand, but that's not good enough. You're arguing that the only way the mad understand was that they were sane, and thet used this sanity to learn, and them went insane after they learned. Now, they can't learn more because they aren't sane enough to do so. Right? That's how it works according to your argument.

Sanity In the DMG= strength of mind to deal with and comprehend the mythos without breaking... madness is separate... what definition of sanity are you using?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Eh, different strokes for different folks... I would state that a big chunk of modern views about the mythos are being shaped by these works and not all are bad unless bad is defined as not being totally beholden to Lovecraft... just look at the ratings for Lovecraft Country.

Lovecraft Country is one of the modern understand-but-modify works I was discussing.

Most of the outside-Lovecraft Mythos is basically fanfic written by admittedly some decent writers, but not all of whom "get" the Mythos, and thus some of whom end up writing pretty basic sci-fi or straightforward horror instead of cosmic/existential horror. I know this because I read TONS of this stuff when I was a teenager. Tons and tons. And gradually I just went "Ooof" and stopped reading it because it was so clear they didn't get it.

Whereas modern stuff like Lovecraft Country or Ruthanna Emrys' Innsmouth Legacy series understand what Lovecraft was doing, but essentially reclaim the concepts, and repurpose/modify them. Consciously rejecting the idea of outright cosmic horror in the case of the Innsmouth Legacy books for example, and replacing it with tremendously weird sci-fi/fantasy focusing on minority groups (including actual deep ones and so on). That's clearly distinct from the bulk of earlier stuff.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Admittedly though, both CoC and ToC have "pulp" modes that involve brave heroes fighting against creatures of the mythos. But the emphasis for both of these are on pulp heroes dealing with mythos creatures rather than on existentialist cosmic horror and dread. It's more what we would expect from Conan, Doc Savage, or Indiana Jones in these scenarios. The daring heroism of these pulp action heroes generally overwrites cosmic horror as the priority of play. I think that D&D could effectively do something closer to "pulp action" with the Cthulhu mythos but I think it's important to recognize how this is adjacent to cosmic horror.

I think it is quite easy to do solid Cosmic Horror with CoC/ToC. You have all the elements. Really the main concern is whether or not the players are interested in short lifespan characters, because you pretty much won't see them coming back for another adventure. In my, long ago, CoC games attrition was HIGH. The players created a sort of 'society' to provide a bit of continuity, so each adventure might be mostly new PCs, but they could count on having a common background support system and a group history. Still, presaging things like Laundry Files, the group's overall mission was at best to stave off the final end of humanity, or keep their home town from being eaten YET.

Obviously SOME level of success is required, and you have this balancing act. You can see it in Laundry Files where the overall trajectory is 'down the tubes' but the actual PCs can advance a bit and learn how to cope. Of course everything they learn just shows them how much worse the situation really is than they suspected. I'd call that cosmic horror.

So, yeah, there's going to be a bit of 'pulpiness' in any sort of game like this, especially set in the 1920's like CoC is. Still, you can get to the existential dread part without THAT much trouble. The rules certainly don't get in your way here. PCs are fragile, monsters ridiculously dangerous, and the SAN/Mythos clock/dilemma is always working against you. Nobody escapes for long. If something doesn't rip your PC limb-from-limb, her mind will surely be fried in a couple adventures. I mean, who can actually survive Masks with a positive SAN? It is practically impossible.

 

[Imaro]

I'm curious how those in this thread view the rules of Call of Cthulhu and their Mythos skill... which, if I remember correctly... pretty much works as a skill that allows one to understand mythos related stuff. It's a rational skill and not madness and the higher it is the better you are at mythos stuff... though again using the skill can result in madness I believe

EDIT: In fact Im going to say I think this approach is much more common than madness equals understanding in most Cthuhu based games. I'm sure there are some but are they the vast majority... that I'm not so sure about.

 

[Ovinomancer]

You're writing an awful lot of words to basically express the concept that you don't understand that we were using metaphors differently, but okay. Or arguably I don't understand boxing terms very well - that would be fair to say. For the sake of clarity, I agree, I should have said "jab" rather than "pull punches".

No, I'm disagreeing with your statement that being a fan means sometimes pulling a punch. It rather requires the opposite. And following doesn't mean you have to pull a punch either.

Not every failure means you're doing maximum punishment, but that's more due to following the fiction than any requirement to not level a hard move. I'm not going to, say, hamstring your character because you failed a defy danger to get away with insulting the chamberlain. That doesn't follow. I am going to make that failure hurt, though, because, as a fan, I want to see what hapoens next.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Sanity In the DMG= strength of mind to deal with and comprehend the mythos without breaking... madness is separate... what definition of sanity are you suing?

That's not the definition from the DMG, though. It your own that you've created for this argument.

 

[Imaro]

That's not the definition from the DMG, though. It your own that you've created for this argument.

ok you state the defintion form the DMG then...

EDIT: Nevermind here is the exact blurb from the DMG explaining Sanity...
Sanity: A character with a high sanity is level-headed even in the face of insane circumstances, while a character with a low sanity is unsteady, breaking easily when confronted by eldritch horrors that are beyond normal reasoning.

Seems pretty close if not spot on to what I stated.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm curious how those in this thread view the rules of Call of Cthulhu and their Mythos skill... which, if I remember correctly... pretty much works as a skill that allows one to understand mythos related stuff. It's a rational skill and not madness and the higher it is the better you are at mythos stuff... though again using the skill can result in madness I believe

EDIT: In fact Im going to say I think this approach is much more common than madness equals understanding in most Cthuhu based games. I'm sure there are some but are they the vast majority... that I'm not so sure about.

Have you actually played CoC? It sounds like you haven't.

You can't start with any points in Cthulhu Mythos. At all. You don't gain skill points by using Cthulhu Mythos. At all.

Let me quote DIRECTLY from CoC for you:

"Instead, points in Cthulhu Mythos are gained by encounters with the Mythos that result in insanity, by insane insights into the true nature of the universe, and by reading forbidden books and other Mythos writings. A character’s Sanity may never be higher than 99 minus his or her Cthulhu Mythos skill. As Cthulhu Mythos points proliferate, they crowd out Sanity points, and leave the investigator vulnerable."

It exactly works like I'm suggesting. EXACTLY. You're flatly and completely wrong. Your Mythos skill is acts a hard barrier to your max sanity. This is not how the suggested system in D&D works. It is how the SAN/ALN system I proposed works, though, but you ignored that in favour of the outright false claim that Cthulhu RPGs let you be sane and have high Mythos. They do not.

I think that demonstrates you conclusively wrong on this point, do you agree?

No, I'm disagreeing with your statement that being a fan means sometimes pulling a punch. It rather requires the opposite. And following doesn't mean you have to pull a punch either.

Not every failure means you're doing maximum punishment, but that's more due to following the fiction than any requirement to not level a hard move. I'm not going to, say, hamstring your character because you failed a defy danger to get away with insulting the chamberlain. That doesn't follow. I am going to make that failure hurt, though, because, as a fan, I want to see what hapoens next.

Christ mate, maybe read the last sentence in the bit you quoted from me? If we'd been using volume as a metaphor, rather than boxing, this entire conversation wouldn't have happened, because I'd have said "Volume set to 5" or something instead of "pulling punches". I've clarified that I meant jabbing.

I will say though, this kind of thing, is why PtbA kind of gets a bad name in some areas of the role-playing community. Some fans just wanna preach and can't/won't listen to what people are saying to them. I don't agree with that bad name, but I think you're helping to exemplify it. To be fair it also happens with any other new/popular RPG which is a bit different. Albeit weirdly FATE fans are seemingly never like that.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'm curious how those in this thread view the rules of Call of Cthulhu and their Mythos skill... which, if I remember correctly... pretty much works as a skill that allows one to understand mythos related stuff. It's a rational skill and not madness and the higher it is the better you are at mythos stuff... though again using the skill can result in madness I believe

EDIT: In fact Im going to say I think this approach is much more common than madness equals understanding in most Cthuhu based games. I'm sure there are some but are they the vast majority... that I'm not so sure about.

Yeah, no. You rank in the Mythos skill reduces your maximum allowed sanity by an equal amount. Using or improving mythos requires a Sanity check every time. There is no minimum sanity score you have to have to use or improve mythos.

If you are maximally sane, you have the same ability to learn mythos skill as someone with the lowest score. Learning mythos always makes you less sane.