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D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

Maybe, I haven't played Bluebeard's Bride, but yeah, players do represent different aspects of the character (and also the rest of the world, too)

I just looked it up and yes, Bluebeard's Bride is similar to the game you described in that the players are all "sisters" which are aspects of the bride.

Definitely a cool concept for a game. Also a good example of how rules influence the way a game feels and the experience of the players.
 

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I just looked it up and yes, Bluebeard's Bride is similar to the game you described in that the players are all "sisters" which are aspects of the bride.

Definitely a cool concept for a game. Also a good example of how rules influence the way a game feels and the experience of the players.
"Influence" seems like a bit of an understatement, LOL.
 

I have come to a realization during these discussions that a TTRPG game can't do horror. Rules can't make you feel horror. I didn't expect to come to this realization, it is just where the conversation took me.
I'm not sure that horror is distinct here. Rules probably can't make me feel love, either, or deep sorrow. Does that mean that a dramatic (or melodramatic) RPG can't be done?

As I understand it, the point of rules in a RPG is to settle the content of the fiction. And fiction can make me feel (by imaginative projection, if not literally) horror, and love, and deep sorrow. So a RPG can do horror if its rules work in a certain way to support a certain sort of fiction.

Personally I wouldn't look to any version of WotC D&D to do this - the rules complexity is, I think, too apt to intrude on the establishment of those sorts of feelings and these games don't have other devices to keep those feelings front and centre. But maybe BW could do horror - it is complex too but does have devices to keep feelings at the forefront. And something like Wuthering Heights or Cthulhu Dark could manage it too, I think.
 

Make the move that follows means you can't just swing for the fences, you can't be the "adversity firehose" described, you have to think about what follows. You don't pull the punch but you also don't go for the hardest hit you can think of, you go for the one that complies with "follows" and "fan".
As far as I know, the phrase "firehose of adversity" comes from Paul Czege (here). He's using it to describe his approach to scene-framing, and contrasting it with what he calls "scene extrapolation" which is typical in much D&D adjudication, CoC adjudication, indeed most mainstream/non-indie RPGing.

I believe that @Ovinomancer is using the phrase in a similar fashion, though he's describing PbtA/FitD play rather than strongly scene-framed play.

The "firehose of adversity" is not every outcome is as bad as one might possibly conceive. It's that every situation, including consequences that are snowballing in from previous situations, put something real at stake for the character. The contrast is not between the orc hurt me and the orc maimed me but between you open the door; the room beyond is empty and you open the door to the vault; the treasure is gone!; or between you see signs of Orc raiding parties and as your eyes follow the Orc tracks to the horizon, you see a smudge of smoke from the distance; it looks like it must be coming from your village; or between the assassin gets the drop on you - you're hosed, and better roll up a new PC and the assassin gets the drop on you - what do you do? (Baker makes an especial point of that last one in the DitV rulebook, but I think the same point holds for PbtA).
 
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It depends how you define madness I guess. But we were actually talking about SAN primarily.

My contention is that a lower SAN is inevitable if you understand Mythos stuff. You might not go insane immediately I agree. But you will be closer to going insane, and more likely to go insane.

There's also a lot of stuff in Lovecraft where people don't full understand stuff until they're losing it.

I don't agree. They're intertwined. There's literally no human in Lovecraft who understands this stuff and is still fully sane. That's not arguable. If such a character existed, they'd stand out as a dumb Mary Sue-type character in defiance of the norms of the setting, but they don't, not in Lovecraft (possibly in a derivative writer but I can't think of one off-hand).

Now you're redefining SAN outside the DMG definition, though.

It's a possible to define a stat that isn't SAN that does what you want, you might actually call Alienation or something (ALN). The more Alienation you have, the easier it is to understand Mythos stuff and the less damaged you are by contact with Mythos stuff, but as your ALN goes up, you'd check to gain what seem to mere human minds, madnesses. When ALN exceeds 20 you go out of play.

This would align with the Mythos. As you become less human through knowing more truths, you would understand stuff even better, and the madness checks should be when you gain ALN, not lose it - and yeah it makes sense that you'd do better with psychic attacks and stuff.

However, that's not SAN as per the DMG.

The problem with SAN is that it goes down and that makes you less able to "understand the ranting of a madman", for example. That doesn't track with the Mythos. SAN goes down when you fail SAN saves and suffer madnesses. Yet when that happens to Mythos characters, they become more likely to understand the rantings of a madman - there's a lot of "FINALLY I COULD SEE!" stuff.

Underneath the hood, I think the problem is that they tried to have a single mechanic serve two masters with different needs. SAN is meant to be a sort of "death spiral" mechanic, making it more and more likely that you fail certain saves and go crazy and fail saves and go crazy and so on. But they also try and use it as an "Occult" stat, to understand weird happenings, which doesn't make sense at all.

So here's an approach that could work:

You have TWO new stats. SAN and ALN. Ok. So SAN you create normally (roll, buy, etc.). ALN is 20 minus SAN. So if you have a SAN of 14, you have an ALN of 6. Maybe the player just picks the stats and they have to total to 20.

SAN is used only for saves. It's used for pretty much the same things as suggested.

ALN is only used for ability checks, and is used solely for understanding things humans should not be able to understand. Like you should not be able to understand what some ranting madman is actually talking about, but if your ALN is high enough, maybe you do. And so on. Pretty much the same list as before.

If you fail a SAN save, and your SAN is 11 or above, roll a d20, on a 10 or more nothing happens, less than 10, lose 1 SAN and gain 1 ALN.

If you fail a SAN save, and your SAN is between 10 and 4, roll a d20, on a 10 or more, you can choose to lose 1 SAN and gain 1 ALN or gain one short-duration madness. Less than 10, lose 1 SAN and gain 1 ALN or gain a long-term madness.

If you sail a SAN save and your SAN is 3 or less, lose 1 SAN and gain one indefinite madness.

(We'd need a better and more thematic set of "madnesses" here, preferably one that isn't really real-world insanity-based, but more "how people go mad in Lovecraft"-based to minimize or even eliminate disability-shaming etc. - more dramatic and ridiculous and not real stuff like depression or outright delusion - indeed any delusions should be Mythos truths, if somewhat misunderstood)

Whenever you roll 20 on a ALN ability check you can choose to gain 1 ALN and lose 1 SAN.

Anyway, this is like a quarter-arsed system and I'd need someone to write the Mythos-appropriate "madnesses" but I think it would do the job better than what is suggested in the DMG.
Did you just reinvent the inverse relationship between (a) Sanity and (b) Cthulhu Mythos skill?
 

I'm curious how those in this thread view the rules of Call of Cthulhu and their Mythos skill... which, if I remember correctly... pretty much works as a skill that allows one to understand mythos related stuff. It's a rational skill and not madness and the higher it is the better you are at mythos stuff... though again using the skill can result in madness I believe
As Cthulhu Mythos goes up, SAN goes down. It's exactly the relationship between Sanity and comprehension that @Ruin Explorer and @Ovinomancer are pointing to.
 

the idea that madness brings insight into the true workings of the Universe, and that said insight also BRINGS madness, that is a very well-established trope, and one that the Mythos/SAN rule in CoC directly addresses (your current AND MAX SAN decrease 1:1 with increased Mythos skill). I'm not sure if other Mythos games actually have an equivalent rule or not, but I'm pretty sure that in all of them sane rational people don't do things like cast spells, talk to aliens, etc.
In ToC, using Cthulhu Mythos skill triggers a SAN check.

In Cthulhu Dark, using your Insanity Die in a check increases your chance of success (and if the task you are attempting is not humanly possible and falls outside your job descriptin - eg a journalist trying to cast a spell - then you will have no dice pool unless you put your Insanity Die in there!) but triggers a chance of a SAN check.
 

Basically. I don't technically restrict player classes in my standard game, my players just pretty much always pick fighters or rogues. Now, what is different is that NPC casters are extremely rare in our standard world. The most powerful caster in the whole world (except for a monster, maybe, and the PC wizard) is a 12th level cleric. There are maybe 4-6 magic users at 10th level (again in the whole world) and most don't get beyond lvl 5. Level 5 is generally considered an archmage in our world.
Just one question: if that's the highest casters can get, who makes all the magic items?
 

Yeah I read it a few years ago. He's not there, but he can forget that. He's not doing the kind of violent scary adventures PCs go on. It's a very strange and cool story, but it's not really aligned with the rest of the Mythos, because it's not very scary, and that's part of the point. It's more high strangeness than anything else. I.e. it's fantasy. It's not even horror-fantasy. It's just fantasy.

Its actually closer to Smith's Lovecraftiana than it is to the rest of his.
 

Just one question: if that's the highest casters can get, who makes all the magic items?
Well, not technically the highest, the PCs are level 15! It is a low magic setting. There are no magic shops or anything like that. Magic items are found in ancient ruins and such. I've never actually spelled it out, but it would be like relics from a previous age when magic was more prevalent. So no one makes magic items anymore (except maybe some dwarves, elves, or similarly gifted group that is mostly hidden). I don't have my player's character sheets but I know no one has anything greater than a +1 magic item (as a reminder the PCs are 15th level).

PS This is some of the flavor that makes it feel like middle earth feel to us (to partially respond to an earlier question). They are finding foe-hammer, goblin cleaver, and sting in a troll den, not buying them at a magic shop.
 
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