D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm not imagining the GM saying that in the middle of a session or GM-sez. It's more the general uncertainty at the end of a session, which I have experienced even as both a player and GM, of "umm... I don't know. I guess we can say that y'all have leveled." As a player it can sometimes feel like, "But did I earn this or are we being up-leveled for the sake of planned future content or just because we asked the GM if we hit a milestone yet?" It's more about providing a bit more structure and benchmarks for PC leveling without having to make these sort of judgment calls as a GM. So the actual milestone is a bit more concrete: it's when the adventure/module is done.

I'm not sure I see how that relates to the players "planning for level-ups"...?

I mean, what you're describing sounds like a DM who should definitely NOT be using DM-sez leveling, because he doesn't have any kind of clear idea on when the PCs should be leveling up. It's definitely not for everyone. I know DMs who like, I wouldn't want them to use it, they should stick to milestone for sure. But even then, with that kind of wishy-washy attitude you're writing about, I've seen them decide a milestone was passed when I really don't think it was, or, in one irritating case, not passed, when it definitely was, because he wanted us to level up later for some reason.

I'll just note that, as two recent examples coming to mind, there are enough steps and decision-making in leveling in both 4e and PF2e that I'd rather not do it at the last minute.

Its not about power-gaming per se (though in the 3e days you could absolutely find that if you didn't plan down the road that you'd walked yourself into a feat chain corner) but decision-paralysis. If you've never had any players prone to it, you won't get it.

Yeah, this is what I initially thought, but I've seen digital stuff eliminate the problem. How? Because I or other DMs can just say at the end of a session "You leveled up! Hooray!" and then in-between sessions the players can actually level up their PC. In 5E it just doesn't matter at all, because there's no decisions to get paralyzed by, or so few that we'd be talking one player "paralyzed" for minutes like once in a multi-year campaign.

With 4E thankfully we had the DDI back then and just did out-of-session leveling, so that completely eliminated the issue. If we hadn't, I can see how you could get problems of decision-paralysis and but my experience is that only power-gamers really experience that strongly - I've seen a power-gamer agonize over what kind of kick to use in one game for over five minutes (not even a permanent decision, just like literally kicking an enemy), I wasn't DMing note. But also only power-gamers tend to plan their PCs. You'd have to badger the heck out of most of the non-power-gamers I've played with if you wanted them to plan.

I assume PF2 is like 4E in this, huge number of potential choices. I dunno if it has a digital toolset of course, guessing not. It's kind of random which games do - Savage Worlds does for example.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Also it's not like a levelup is going to be in the middle of a session, so they'll have plenty of time to consider their choices.

Makes assumptions about how tidy session breaks are that is not self-evident.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Makes assumptions about how tidy session breaks are that is not self-evident.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

The only time I can think of playing RPGs that didn't have "tidy" session breaks was when me and some friends basically played D&D for like, 72 hours straight (briefly sleeping from time to time) when we were all around 15. I guess play-by-post would have an issue but analysis paralysis stuff wouldn't be an issue there.

 

[Aldarc]

I'm not sure I see how that relates to the players "planning for level-ups"...?

If players know that their level-up comes upon completion of the adventure/module, then that usually silences questions about when they level or alleviates concerns thereof. So IMHO more concrete milestones help with adventure pacing. Wanna rush through the adventure to level up? Cool. Do so. Wanna take your time and not care about rushing the adventure to gain a level? Cool. Do so.

I mean, what you're describing sounds like a DM who should definitely NOT be using DM-sez leveling, because he doesn't have any kind of clear idea on when the PCs should be leveling up. It's definitely not for everyone. I know DMs who like, I wouldn't want them to use it, they should stick to milestone for sure. But even then, with that kind of wishy-washy attitude you're writing about, I've seen them decide a milestone was passed when I really don't think it was, or, in one irritating case, not passed, when it definitely was, because he wanted us to level up later for some reason.

I often use milestone leveling, but, again, I prefer a bit more structure regarding those milestones, such that it's not simply a matter of "GM sez" because leveling should also feel earned by players. A leveling milestone should be a PC milestone rather than simply GM fiat.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, this is what I initially thought, but I've seen digital stuff eliminate the problem. How? Because I or other DMs can just say at the end of a session "You leveled up! Hooray!" and then in-between sessions the players can actually level up their PC. In 5E it just doesn't matter at all, because there's no decisions to get paralyzed by, or so few that we'd be talking one player "paralyzed" for minutes like once in a multi-year campaign.

If you don't think it can take longer than a week for some people to make up their minds about things like this, again I have to politely suggest you haven't seen real hardcore decision paralysis in action. I realize it may be irrelevant in 5e (one of the number of reasons I'm uninterested in it) but in games with genuine meaningful choices I've had people only finalizing their characters two weeks after they leveled in games with levels.

With 4E thankfully we had the DDI back then and just did out-of-session leveling, so that completely eliminated the issue. If we hadn't, I can see how you could get problems of decision-paralysis and but my experience is that only power-gamers really experience that strongly - I've seen a power-gamer agonize over what kind of kick to use in one game for over five minutes (not even a permanent decision, just like literally kicking an enemy), I wasn't DMing note. But also only power-gamers tend to plan their PCs. You'd have to badger the heck out of most of the non-power-gamers I've played with if you wanted them to plan.

I think this is using "power gamer" as a pretty broad brush at least, since it applies to pretty much everyone in my two extended gaming groups to one degree or another including both me and my wife. Its got as much to do with what's sometimes called FOMO as power gaming (though you can make an argument that some element of the latter is implicit in the former, but like I said, at that point it extends power gamer to "anyone who cares about the effectiveness of their character in play at all.")

I assume PF2 is like 4E in this, huge number of potential choices. I dunno if it has a digital toolset of course, guessing not. It's kind of random which games do - Savage Worlds does for example.

HLO has a PF2e set. It doesn't really change the issue enormously IME; it just makes it a little less manual in how you dither.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If players know that their level-up comes upon completion of the adventure/module, then that usually silences questions about when they level or alleviates concerns thereof. So IMHO more concrete milestones help with adventure pacing. Wanna rush through the adventure to level up? Cool. Do so. Wanna take your time and not care about rushing the adventure to gain a level? Cool. Do so.

None of the examples of milestone level-ups I've seen have been reliably tied to adventure completion. An awful lot of campaigns I've seen have a bunch of milestones when things are achieved, but I wouldn't call most of them "adventure completion", so it's more like you're describing a fourth path, and a totally viable one of "level only on adventure completion".

I often use milestone leveling, but, again, I prefer a bit more structure regarding those milestones, such that it's not simply a matter of "GM sez" because leveling should also feel earned by players. A leveling milestone should be a PC milestone rather than simply GM fiat.

LOL oh dear yeah I don't think anyone has ever felt their level was "unearned" in any of my DM sez games, on the contrary there has been some "have we leveled up yet?", which honestly amuses me - it is interesting that it is usually the same session I've planned to level them up at, but if that question annoys you I can see other methods appealing.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If you don't think it can take longer than a week for some people to make up their minds about things like this, again I have to politely suggest you haven't seen real hardcore decision paralysis in action.

I gladly and openly accept that I have never seen analysis paralysis that bad! I've played with incredibly serious power-gamers and even outright munchkins and the most dithering I've seen has been multiple hours on a single decision. I'm not sure I can even comprehend what decision might require two weeks of consideration, let alone one that is merely about normal "character effectiveness". I think we'd ditch any game that created that kind of situation lol.

I think this is using "power gamer" as a pretty broad brush at least

Yes. But it's a good/useful thing in my experience.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I gladly and openly accept that I have never seen analysis paralysis that bad! I've played with incredibly serious power-gamers and even outright munchkins and the most dithering I've seen has been multiple hours on a single decision. I'm not sure I can even comprehend what decision might require two weeks of consideration, let alone one that is merely about normal "character effectiveness". I think we'd ditch any game that created that kind of situation lol.

But have you considered that there might be two SEPARATE feats that allowed your character to crawl faster? How would you choose between them?

 

[Thomas Shey]

I gladly and openly accept that I have never seen analysis paralysis that bad! I've played with incredibly serious power-gamers and even outright munchkins and the most dithering I've seen has been multiple hours on a single decision. I'm not sure I can even comprehend what decision might require two weeks of consideration, let alone one that is merely about normal "character effectiveness". I think we'd ditch any game that created that kind of situation lol.

I've seen people who can spend two hours making up their mind what to go get for dinner (gods know I probably could do it myself when of a mood). Going back and forth on a character decision they'll at least be carrying around for a while doesn't seem at all odd to me, and when there are multiples...

And if we ditched every system that could produce that, we just wouldn't play; anything that would avoid it would be waaaay too schematic for us. I mean, the only reason it doesn't become an issue in non-leveled games is you're usually doing it piecemeal (so they're likely deciding on one thing only when they advance at any given moment, and often in point build systems they're going to have to save up a few points to get it anyway).

Yes. But it's a good/useful thing in my experience.

I've got to tell you man, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming its not deliberate, when used that broadly it comes across as pretty strongly judgmental and dismissive. Power gamer is not such a neutral term you don't want to handle it with some care.

 

[Thomas Shey]

But have you considered that there might be two SEPARATE feats that allowed your character to crawl faster? How would you choose between them?

Its more like "Do I want the one that will make me climb faster or jump better? Which one will I get more use out of. HOW DO I KNOW? HOW DO I KNOW?!

Thank the gods more and more modern games allow for limited character reworks over time, or it'd be even worse.