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[D&D Design Discussion] Preserving the "Sweet Spot"

VirgilCaine

First Post
Kid Charlemagne said:
-Another point about Raised Dead - I limit it in my games via role-playing considerations. Think about it: If you're a cleric being asked to raise someone, why would you? If he's been acting counter to your religions beliefs, he's not worthy. If he's been acting in accordance to your beliefs, he's in heaven, and who would want to be brought back from there? If he's not a believer in your religion, why would you even consider it? All taken together, this means Raise Deads should be rare.

PCs. Crazy people devoted to their deity who want to fight evil some more...or who can't be spared yet from the mortal struggle against evil. 10th level Heroes aren't a dime-a-dozen.

Because he's needed back here, the NPC's Good church can bring him back to fight evil some more, and the temple to his Good deity is hundreds of miles away?
 

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Kid Charlemagne

I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
VirgilCaine said:
PCs. Crazy people devoted to their deity who want to fight evil some more...or who can't be spared yet from the mortal struggle against evil. 10th level Heroes aren't a dime-a-dozen.

Because he's needed back here, the NPC's Good church can bring him back to fight evil some more, and the temple to his Good deity is hundreds of miles away?

True - I don't mean to say that good answers to those questions don't exist, just that (in my view) NPC clerics should be asking them. I also like having evil temples offer to bring your buddy back - no questions asked. For Free. For some reason the PC's never take them up on it... :)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Lots and lots of things to reply to here; please pardon the verbosity... :)

1. Define the "sweet spot". In our old 1e games, it was from about levels 3-7. With various tweaks and revisions to the 1e system, I think we've expanded it to about levels 3-9, but I'd still like to see it go a bit higher, say to 12-ish. In 3e, much has been done to smooth things out, including the sweet spot...now, I think one could argue there's about the same amount of "sweetness" from about 1-15, which is good, but that "sweetness" isn't as sweet as the old 1e 3-7 range. Make sense? OK, so how to either expand it (in older editions) or sweeten it (in newer)?

2. Commune is a game-breaker from the DM's perspective, assuming deities to actually be the almost-all-knowing beings they're intended to be. It is very hard to design an adventure with any sense of mystery when the mystery can be shattered (or the puzzle can be solved) with judicious casting of one spell. I despise nerfing spells, and nerfing the deities themselves is just not an option. So, all that's left is to raise its level; in 1e I'd make it 7th (as high as Cleric spells can go) and in 3e it goes to 8th or 9th.

3. Travel spells (Teleport, Planeshift, etc.) are a problem only if overused. Planeshift is easy to fix: simply rule that it puts you back on any plane at the same place you last left it...this still allows parties to plane-hop but removes it as a travel spell. Teleport is not a problem in 1e - the small risk of instant death tends to make people use it in emergencies only, and there's limits to what can be carried. Put the risk back in, and problem mostly solved.

4. Raise Dead being available is not a problem *if* there's some chance that it will not work and-or *if* there's some overarching limit on how many times a character can come back. 1e handled the risk very well (Con-based survival % roll) and the limit not so well (can come back once per each point of starting Con., too high, in most cases). 3e just has you lose a level, with no risk of it failing and no limit (not to mention that in 3.0 the spell is ridiculously cheap; 3.5 at least fixed this); this makes it too easy. There has to be some mechanism available to revive dead characters, unless you as DM never plan on killing any; the Raise-with-risk works fine for me, even when the party can cast it in the field.

5. Level advancement rates. Obviously, slowing them down prolongs the sweet spot in any edition...so, particularly if you're playing 3e, slow them down; either by changing the actual bump points or by giving out less ExP per encounter. For those who've posted that their players "expect" the frequent gratification that advancement brings, I'll just be a curmudgeon and say that you as DM need to challenge those expectations - harshly, if necessary - right at the start of the campaign...and if the players balk, too bad for them.

6. Save-or-die is not a problem, and to some extent happens at all levels; it's only at the higher levels it becomes named as such. At 1st level, it's save (find the pit trap) or die (fall in and hit the spikes). At 5th level, if a bigass Giant swings at you, it's save (he misses) or die (he hits). At 9th, you're targeted with Slay Living; save or die. It's all the same, really. More important is there need to be other ways to die than all-or-nothing spells at high levels to keep the sense of threat in play; the simplest thing here is limit AC somehow (no idea how).

7. One thing that hasn't come up yet but is also relevant is treasure. Part of what makes the sweet spot sweet is that you've got *some* stuff as a PC, but you're hungry for more. At higher levels, often the PC's have most or all of what they need, so the hunger is gone. One obvious suggestion is don't give out as much, but this is no fun. Instead, I suggest to give it out, but have it break/wear out/melt/etc. more often - easy come, easy go, and fun if the items sometimes release wild magic surges when they go. :) Oh, and do away with magic shops if you have 'em; the only magic for sale would normally be stuff other parties don't want, and if other parties don't want it, chances are your party doesn't either. "What's for sale in Neverwinter?" "Well, you find the same +3 Footman's Pike that was for sale last time you were here; oh, and someone must have killed a Giant, because there's a suit of real nice +4 Hide Armour that just came on the market. If you're at least 13' tall, it'll fit you..." If they know the usual way they're going to find what they want is to adventure for it, adventuring maintains a bit more allure. (I'll admit I'm guilty of blowing this one...badly...)

All that said, the sweet spot is going to vary group by group to some extent. Some groups like nothing more than the sheer terror of trying to run 1st-level characters through a dangerous adventure, and by the time they're 5th it's not sweet anymore. Other groups think anything less than 10th is just preamble, before the real fun starts. As long as there's at least a vague agreement within the group, all's good. But I'm interested to note that others here have also pointed to the 3-9-ish range as being "sweet"; I agree. :)

Lanefan
 
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I would like to warn that any discussion which uses poll data from EN World as a data point is... pretty far removed from reality. EN World is a tiny, tiny fragment of the D&D populace, and the people who respond to poll on EN World is an even smaller fragment. So just because some people in a poll said they liked playing up to 10th level and no higher doesn't make that the case for "everyone" who plays D&D.

Also, if you define the sweet spot as, that point beyond which spells become too "wahoo" -- then why is 10th the cutoff? At 10th level you've got teleport, raise dead, commune, and plane shift -- four of the biggest game-changing spells there are. You've also got the presence of "save of die" spells like dominate person, hold monster, baleful polymorph, slay living, and those are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

So if the sweet spot is supposed to avoid game-changing spells -- then 10th level is too high. But perhaps 8th level is also too high, because of other less obvious game-changing spells, so we move down to 6th level. And so forth.

Perhaps it is necessary to accept that the game of D&D changes every time the PCs level up?
 

Maniac

Explorer
Much power in high level play comes from Magic Items - especially for the non-spell casters.
Capping the availability of powerful magic items reduces the power level and number crunching of the higher levels but still leaves a "sweet spot" level of magic around.

You would need to increase costs for these items or outright ban item creation feats to prevent players from circumventing the limits.

Powerful magics might take the place of artifacts and become story elements.

Alternatively, making more one-shot or charged items might work too though that may add to complexity as bonues would frequently changes.

M.
 

GlassJaw

Hero
Joshua Randall said:
I would like to warn that any discussion which uses poll data from EN World as a data point is... pretty far removed from reality. EN World is a tiny, tiny fragment of the D&D populace, and the people who respond to poll on EN World is an even smaller fragment. So just because some people in a poll said they liked playing up to 10th level and no higher doesn't make that the case for "everyone" who plays D&D.

Nothing is ever designed for "everyone". The fact that there are 2 people (Wulf and myself) justifies a discussion (even when there are more than that involved in this discussion). And whoever said any system has to be for everyone anyway?

Also, if you define the sweet spot as, that point beyond which spells become too "wahoo" -- then why is 10th the cutoff? At 10th level you've got teleport, raise dead, commune, and plane shift -- four of the biggest game-changing spells there are. You've also got the presence of "save of die" spells like dominate person, hold monster, baleful polymorph, slay living, and those are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

So if the sweet spot is supposed to avoid game-changing spells -- then 10th level is too high. But perhaps 8th level is also too high, because of other less obvious game-changing spells, so we move down to 6th level. And so forth.

There are two design directions you can take to address these spells. One is to just remove them from the game altogether. The other is to limit when they beocme available to the players. As it stands now, they become available at the middle levels. But what if they were only available at the end? This would be the same as capping advancement at 10 and doubling the XP needed at each level.

Perhaps it is necessary to accept that the game of D&D changes every time the PCs level up?

I do. And I also accept the fact that it changes in a way that I don't like, hence this thread.
 

GlassJaw

Hero
Maniac said:
You would need to increase costs for these items or outright ban item creation feats to prevent players from circumventing the limits.

You might have to restrict or ban a few items but I think a level cap would take care of most of the problems. The level cap would prevent certain item creation feats from being available and also prevent certain items from being made at all because certain spells won't be available.

Adhering to the treasure limits per level in the DMG would help as well.
 

pogre

Legend
I'll attempt to refrain from making this a pro-high level adventuring argument as per Wulf's request. I acknowledge the game changes significantly from 10th level on. It essentially becomes a supers game from my perspective.

Here are some solutions/ideas I have contemplated for extending the sweet spot:
  • 4th level spells and above must be discovered by the PCs. These spells are treasure, and something - a relic, tome, etc. must be carried to cast these spells.
  • No attacks beyond the second for PCs.
  • Limit the number of bonuses available - as suggested above.
  • Make the manufacture of magic items of a certain level require components beyond wealth. For example, any armor or weapon beyond +2 was required to be made of Uberstahl in my latest campaign - an exceptionally rare ore.
  • Impose armor penalties on flying and give it a test - much like swimming.
  • Impose a chance of a 1 Con penalty on raise dead on the caster.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Joshua Randall said:
Also, if you define the sweet spot as, that point beyond which spells become too "wahoo" -- then why is 10th the cutoff?

It's a good question, one I'd be happy to answer in detail-- unless the question is rhetorical.

For now I'll just say there are a lot of good reasons (and a lot of d20 design "hints") that point to 10th level, and not just where spellcasters are concerned (though that is a big part of it).

At 10th level you've got teleport, raise dead, commune, and plane shift -- four of the biggest game-changing spells there are. You've also got the presence of "save of die" spells like dominate person, hold monster, baleful polymorph, slay living, and those are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

So if the sweet spot is supposed to avoid game-changing spells -- then 10th level is too high.

I think that the existence of these 'game breaking' spells at "end game" is appropriate to the style and feel of the game I want to run.

I think that the existence of these spells at "mid game" is not appropriate.
 


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