D&D General D&D Evolutions You Like and Dislike [+]

[Maxperson]

should i of just chosen to play a wizard so i could use Command on them instead?

Sure. Magic overriding the will of the enemy isn't being a leader or bossing them around. It's mind control, which is a different beast.

 

[payn]

Bard wasn't a core class in 1e; Barbarian and Sorcerer weren't core in 1e or 2e, and the Sorcerer represented a mechanical niche in 3.X that didn't exist in 4e. They took a backseat to the Four in the Core, the Ranger and Paladin (core in both editions of AD&D and 3e) and the Warlock and Warlord.

Not as niche as the Monk or the Soulknife (RIP), but compared to everything but the last two...

I get it, and I'd have preferred the Bard over the Warlock too, but the PHB1 was 320 pages already and each class would be another 12-15 pages. It wasn't some nefarious scheme to force you to buy two books... or else there would have been a lot more old classes (which I would have preferred) to new classes in PHBs 2 and 3.

Matter of perspective. I didnt take it personally, it was just another choice in many that put me off 4E. Id say this niche designation is rather nitpicking though and space limitations kinda blown apart with 5E. They were able to get all the classes minus the warlord into it and didnt need PHB 2,3,4,etc..

 

[Gimby]

Commanders strike says that the target CAN make an attack as a reaction, it does not make the target do so in the wording. Further, one ability does not a leader make. It's just a guy saying, "Hit it Joe!"

As for bless, the wording isn't even that strong. Nothing in it directs the targets to do anything at all. There is no bossing other PCs around inherent to it at all.

Text of 4e Commander's strike as of the Rules Compendium:

"One of your allies can take a free action to make a melee basic attack against the target. The ally gains a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Intelligence modifier."

So, basically identical?

- edit If your objection is basically that you don't like the default flavour text, then fine, that's a perfectly reasonable aesthetic preference. From the actual mechanical implementation though, the only "bossy" leader is the one that can't actually compel actions. Clerics and Bards can, but they've always been able to in all editions

 

[Maxperson]

Text of 4e Commander's strike as of the Rules Compendium:

So, basically identical?

No. Commander's Strike, "With a shout, you command an ally to attack."

"Hit it Joe!" from a buddy isn't the same as your boss ordering you to do something. The Battle Master is not a leader and isn't designed to boss others around, even if it has one ability that comes close. The 4e Warlord is Leader with tons of abilities that center on bossing the party around.

Basically it's the difference between my exclaiming, "Quick X, bring some more paper towels!" as I use the ones I have to try and stop a spill, and your boss saying, "X, there's a spill on aisle 1, go clean it up. There are paper towels in the break room." The former isn't trying to be a boss of you. The latter is.

 

[Gimby]

No. Commander's Strike, "With a shout, you command an ally to attack."

"Hit it Joe!" from a buddy isn't the same as your boss ordering you to do something. The Battle Master is not a leader and isn't designed to boss others around, even if it has one ability that comes close. The 4e Warlord is Leader with tons of abilities that center on bossing the party around.

Basically it's the difference between my exclaiming, "Quick X, bring some more paper towels!" as I use the ones I have to try and stop a spill, and your boss saying, "X, there's a spill on aisle 1, go clean it up. There are paper towels in the break room." The former isn't trying to be a boss of you. The latter is.

Am I understanding you correctly then it is the default flavour text that you object to and because the Battlemaster ability has no flavour text at all, you prefer it as you can freely skin at as you like? Given that they are mechanically identical?

 

[DammitVictor]

Matter of perspective. I didnt take it personally, it was just another choice in many that put me off 4E. Id say this niche designation is rather nitpicking though and space limitations kinda blown apart with 5E. They were able to get all the classes minus the warlord into it and didnt need PHB 2,3,4,etc..

Each class in 5e is half the size of a class in 4e, even including all of the subclass information. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but that's because the structure of 4e classes gave them a lot more options that 5e classes don't get, and 5e leaning even harder into the 4e "if the thing you want to play isn't in the rules, just pick something that is and pretend" ethos.

And yeah. No sense quibbling about individual grains of sand when you're relaxing on the beach.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Why should I have to do the work to re-write the flavor text for a ton of abilities for multiple classes? How about just not put in classes that boss other PCs around in the first place and let that sort of thing be a table choice?

you don't even have to rewrite anything. you can just ignore the flavour text and describe it differently.

Speaking of evolutions in the game that we dislike...

...you...dislike reflavouring? i mean i dislike reflavouring as an excuse to not add content but reflavouring as a whole? really?

Commanders strike says that the target CAN make an attack as a reaction, it does not make the target do so in the wording. Further, one ability does not a leader make. It's just a guy saying, "Hit it Joe!"

No. Commander's Strike, "With a shout, you command an ally to attack."

5e commander's strike (bold emphasis mine):

When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can [different action description depending on whether it's 2014 or 2024 to] direct one of your companions to strike.

this is...literally the same problem you've been complaining about with the 4e warlord. it doesn't really matter if it's only one ability. it's the exact same flavour issue. why is one okay and not the other?

 

[CreamCloud0]

Sure. Magic overriding the will of the enemy isn't being a leader or bossing them around. It's mind control, which is a different beast.

yeah, sure, totally, it's entirely different if it's the wizard bossing around your teammates than if it were the warlord.

 

[Maxperson]

Am I understanding you correctly then it is the default flavour text that you object to and because the Battlemaster ability has no flavour text at all, you prefer it as you can freely skin at as you like? Given that they are mechanically identical?

And also context. If every Battle Master ability or even most of them were similarly themed like the Warlord abilities, it would stop being a buddy saying something and become a class that tried to boss others around.

 

[Maxperson]

yeah, sure, totally, it's entirely different if it's the wizard bossing around your teammates than if it were the warlord.

Mind assault is very different than bossing someone around. The wizard isn't "bossing." It's literal mind control. How do you not see that?

I can tell you that if your wizard ever used mind control on my PC, we would no longer be allies. We'd be enemies. Allies don't mind screw their allies.