D&D Has NO CLASS!!

Tagnik

First Post
OK I Finished typing all my stuff out and Copy and Pasted it from Notepad into here. This is basically the rules for my campaign and is based off of Ry's E6 and Mutants and Masterminds. I have general rules for a Classless D&D then I have my campaign specific House Rules, such as Teleport being modified, and Fly requiring a Broom, etc.

Character Creation in General

Point Buy System based off Mutants and Masterminds. DM selects Campaign's Power Level based off 1 - 20. Level 1 starts with

15 points while level 20 ends with 300 points. It scales 15 points per level with level 6 being 90 points and level 10 being

150 points. You use these Power Points to buy your characters ability scores, attack bonuses, character features, etc.


Ability Scores 1 per point (start at 10, max is 18, can be lowered below 10 to raise another stat.)
Attack Bonus 3 per point (max is level)
Defense Bonus 2 per point (max is level)
Feats 2 per feat
Weakness +10 Power Points (see M&M Rulebook)
Class abilities 3 per ability (anything that doesn't qualify as a feat)


Hit Dice

First you select the Hit Dice you wish to use for each Power Levels you have. Each power level uses a d4 for free.
At first level you get max hit dice X3, and at each level you roll and take the result or half the hit dice, whichever is

higher.

d6 - 2 points per level
d8 - 3 points per level
d10- 4 points per level
d12- 5 points per level

Proficiencies

Everyone is proficient in weapons as a Wizard to start and in no armor or shields.

Simple Weapons 2 points Light Armor 2 points, Medium 3 points, Heavy 4 points
Martial Weapons 3 points Light Shields 2 points, Heavy 3 points, all Shields 4 points


Class Abilities

All class abilities cost 3 points each. To buy the class ability you must be able to attain it within the character level

limits. IE a Barbarian's Damage Reduction 1/- can only be reached by Power Level 7+ campaign.
Class abilities that can be found as feats only cost 2 points, such as Sneak Attack or Favored Enemy (Unearthed Arcana)
Some class abilities can be upgraded for less by just paying 1 point per upgrade. IE Barbarian's rage 1/day to 2/day, or his

Trap Sense ability.

EXCEPTION: Sneak Attack is bought at 2 points per d6 and has a max of half your level rounded down. Characters with Sneak

Attack feats equal to half their level must be 4 Power Levels higher than a character with Improved Uncanny Dodge to Flank

them.

Prestige Class Abilities

To purchase class abilities from a Prestige class, you must meet all the minimum requirements of that prestige class.
IE a power level 10 character wanting to hide in plain site would be able to use the Shadowdancer's requirements to meet it,

as the Assassin's and Ranger's is too high level.


Spell Casting

You must choose which base class you are casting as. EX: Sorcerer, Paladin, etc. This defines whether its divine or arcane

and which ability scores are used.

You must first purchase the levels of spells before you can purchase the number of spells per day.

There are 3 different spell casting progressions. Low, Mid, and High. Low is as a Paladin, Mid as a bard or Duskblade, or

high as a Sorcerer/Wizard etc.

Low is 4 Points per Spell Level
Mid is 6 Points per Spell Level
High is 8 Points per Spell Level

Once you purchase your spell levels (Cantrips do not count), you may purchase your spells per day. The spells per day per

level are the maximum allowed for a level 20 caster (IE 6 1st level spells for a Sorcerer). Your caster level is determined

by the number of spells per day to reach the next caster level. IE a sorcerer who can cast 6 first level spells and 3 second

level spells has a caster level of 4. To reach 5 he must purchase another second level spell per day.

For 2 points a caster may learn all cantrips if available for his casting class. If a spontaneous caster, you use maximum

spells known as a 20th level caster. Divine casters emit auras as a Cleric.


Saves

Saving throws cost 1 point each and max is as a good saving throw by level. IE a max of 5 at level 6.


Skills

All skills are class skills. You purchase a skill Pool, that works as your skill points per level. IE for 2 points you get

2 skill points + Int Modifier per level. etc. It is not multiplied by 4 at first level.


DC's

The DC's of class abilities that use character level work as normal. Class abilities that use Class level use Half your

Character level rounded down. DC's from 5 level PRC's that say per PrC level is maxed at 5.

Auras and Invocations

These cost the same as class abilities, 3 points, and max known are as per level of the class you've chosen them from.; but

you must buy each aura known individually. Your Aura's level (+1, +3, etc) is dependant on the number of aura's you know.

TBo9S is available only through the 2 Martial Feats


Race

Race is chosen as normal. Races with level adjustments are bought with 15 points per Level Adjustment. Monster races are

bought by buying up the hit dice, chosing the class skills and paying 2 or 3 points per Monster Class ability respectively.

Ititerative Attacks

When BAB of +6 has been paid, it can either be raised to +7 or add a secondary attack at +1. This attack can be bought up to

your BAB. IE a +6/+6.



CAMPAIGN SPECIFIC - Everything from here on are optional rules included in my campaign.

Spell Casting and Spell Resistance. Faith System.

Spell Resistance can be bought at 1 to 1 up to a max of 3x's your level, such as 18 at level 6. If you buy spell resistance,

you may not purchase spells or spell-like abilities. Likewise a character that purchases spell casting or spell-like

abilities may not use Supernatural Abilities or Spell Resistance. Extrordinary abilities may be used by everyone. Exception

is a Race that gains spell resistance may only use their natural spells or spell like abilities. This spell resistance does

not stack with any other spell resistance.

Item Creation

All Item Creation feats give the caster the ability to make any item at Half book Price. Period. No XP or other costs.

Material Costs are assumed in the price unless its made of a special material.


Magical Armor and Shields

Mage Armor and the bonus given from Magical Armor adds to Touch AC. The magic bonus given to shields acts as a Damage

Reduction for Spells that cause damage, such as Magic Missle and Fireball, etc.

Armor Points / Damage Reduction

Armor has Damage Reduction based on armor type. The total amount of damage a suit of armor can take is 10x's its AC bonus +

any magical bonus. Armor reduces by a certain number per individual physical hit as follows:

Light 1/-
Medium 2/-
Heavy 3/-

This Damage reduction stacks with all other damage reduction. For example Half Plate has 70 Armor Points and reduces damage

3 points at a time. The cost to repair armor is 25% of the base cost of the armor.


Divine and Arcane Focus

Spell Casters must use a Focus for all spells. Material Components are not used as if every caster had an Eschew Materials

feat. Arcane Spell Casters must use a Wand or Staff and a Divine Caster must use a Holy Symbol that takes up a Magic Item

Slot, such as a Ring, Amulent, Shield, etc. A Shield is the only one of these slots that can remain magically enhanced.

Other Spells also require a specific focus besides the ones used above.

Fly Spell must have a Broom, Carpet, or Bed. Flying requries ride checks and acts as if the player is mounted. IE Casting

spells off the back of a broom requires a concentration check as if on horse back.

Teleport works as a Port Key. 2 Mundane Objects must be set in certain places and must be outdoors. It takes 10 minutes

casting time to set each item (20 minutes total). If either of the items are moved, the enchantment is broken.

Dimension Door takes a full round action to cast and requires throwing a stone to the location wished to Dimension Door to.

The location must also be within line of effect.


Taking 10 on Attack rolls

You may take a 10 on all attack rolls. You may instead roll as normal. A natural 20 is always an auto hit and automatic

crit. A roll of a 10 is also an Automatic Hit. If a second 10 or 20 is rolled, you roll on the critial hit chart. A thirt

10 results in an instant kill. 3 20's in a row also cause an instant kill. 2 20's does not roll on the critical hit chart.

Two Same Critial Locations rolled in the same encounter severs the limb, head, etc.

Crit Chart

1-2 Nothing
3 - offhand is hit, -2 Dex and can't use offhand. A shield or Gauntlet blocks this
4 - Mainhand, -2 Dex, can't use mainhand, weapon dropped if no Guard or Gauntlet
5 - Offarm, -2 Dex, -2 Str, Same as Off Hand, Shield and Arm Guards block this
6 - Mainarm, Same as off arm
7-8 Leg, -2 Str, -4 Dex, move at Half Speed. Leg Armor blocks this
9 - Stomach - 20% Chance of death, +5 Damage, sickened, -4 Con. Plate Armor Blocks this
10 - Chest - 20% Death, stunned, -2 Con, Bleeding 1 point. Blocked by Plate armor
11 - Neck 50% Death, Bleeding 5 points
12 - Head 20% Death, -4 Cha, int, Wis, Stunned 1d4, +10 damage

If a 10 is not taken and an attack roll results in a 1, a botch is made. If a melee or ranged attack, the attacker takes

normal weapon damage as subdual. If a sneak attack, half the sneak attack damage is added as subdual damage. If a spell,

such as from a ranged touch attack, the caster must save against his own spell DC.


Drama Dice, Hero Points, Bennies, Etc.

Drama Dice are d10's that can be used for a number of options.

Add to any dice roll
Re-Roll any dice roll
Submit 1 for a Move action immediately
Submit 2 for a Standard Action immediately
submit 3 for a Full Round Action started at the end of your turn, cannot stack with another spell being cast.
Automatically Stabalize when dropped below 0 HP
Submit for Dramatic Situation

All PC's recieve 5 Drama Dice per game session. All unused Drama Dice are lost. These cannot be traded.


Initiative

Initiative is rolled using a D12. On a result of a 12, the character gets a +1 luck bonus to all rolls on his first turn.

Level Advancement

See E6. Every 5k XP, gain a feat :)
 
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Claudius Gaius

First Post
Given that some things appear to carry through and some do not - for example, the skill pool appears to be determined by an investment at level one, while hit dice are an ongoing expense (which all have to be the same for some reason), builds which invest heavily in carry-through abilities will become immensely more attractive as the power level goes up, so a character developed level by level is quite unlikely to resemble one initially built at higher level.

Secondarily, just as a sample, it's probably going to be much more effective to buy Dexterity than to buy Defense, since you get the same modifier on AC yet Dexterity helps in numerous other areas as well.

"Anything that doesn't qualify as a feat" is fairly vague. Depending on your sourcebooks, almost ANYTHING can qualify as a feat.

This kind of thing takes a lot of work, or the players will find all kinds of exploits in it. Still, if you want source material for this sort of thing, try the shareware version of Eclipse: it's got a lot of stuff.
 

Tagnik

First Post
Yes, I guess its not meant for Power Gaming. But then again it sort of is.

With the level limit set, I can always throw something bigger at the PC's :)

My idea for Monsters would be to triple their Hit Points at times, as the PC's will basically be very strong, and gestault like.

This gives them a chance to scour their source books and build their class, sort of like building a magic deck. Sure they can pump points into Dex, but then there goes wearing plate armor, having damage reduction, etc. Instead they can just put some points in Base Defense which doesn't go away if they are flat footed.

Its really up to the imagination of the player. One of the few books/options I wont include are Psionics and Tome of Magic since I don't know how to use those yet. :)
 


Claudius Gaius

First Post
I'm sorry, but now that you've expended it, it seems to contradict itself. How can you use power levels 1-20 and E6 level advancement? Do hit dice cost points every level without the option to change them, or are they a per-level purchase? Is the Skill Pool a one-time purchase? Can attributes be bought any time?

Could I take a character being set up at L8 and buy, say...

L1: d8 HD (24 HP, 3 points) and a 12-point skill pool. From now on, d8 HD and 12 SP/Level
L2: 18 Int (8 points) and - say - Con 14 (4 points). Now spending 16 SP/Level
L3: Con 18 (+4 points) and Str 18 (8 points)
L4: Dex 18 (8 points) and Wis 14 (4 points)
L5: Wis 18 (+4 points), +2 on each Save (6 points), and a Feat (2 points)
L6-8: Buy some weapon and armor proficiencies (apparently about 8 points for all weapons and armor - although the weapons are not listed beyond simple weapons), a few more save bonuses (say all to +4, +6 points), and and - say - 11 feats of choice.

At L8 that'd give me 124 skill points, +8 on all my saves (base plus attribute), +4 to Hit and Damage (due to strength), an average of 100.75 HP (effective rolls of 4/4/4/4/5/6/7/8 averaged plus constitution), and whatever I could squeeze out of the feats. There are doubtless better builds, but I like experts.

Next I'd probably boost my Chr just to be complete and get the Paladin's holy protection ability (another +4 to all saves for 3 points) before buying much to attack with - but that'd be next.

I'd certainly never buy extra attacks: why pay the same for something that drags down my base attack bonus? If I want extra damage, I'll buy a high BAB and get some feats to boost up the attacks: they're a lot cheaper for the effect.

Honestly, I don't think you can come up with a workable d20 system which allows the use of all the various abilities and feats in less than 50 pages or so. It'll probably be a lot longer than that in the end - and there are already several like that out there, including the BESM system, Mutants and Masterminds (as you've already noted), and Eclipse (which is already compatible with normal d20 characters).
 

Tagnik

First Post
I'm sorry, but now that you've expended it, it seems to contradict itself. How can you use power levels 1-20 and E6 level advancement?

-- the DM sets the level of the game. sortof like E6, or E8 or E10. I just showed the math for 1-20. Same advancement is as E6 meaning every 5k XP you gain a new feat, nothing else.


Do hit dice cost points every level without the option to change them, or are they a per-level purchase?

-- Per level purchase, a level 6 character who wants all d6 hit dice would have to pay 12 points, 2 each per level.


Is the Skill Pool a one-time purchase?

-- Yes, one time purchase at character creation.

Can attributes be bought any time?

-- No, one time purchase at creation. Max is 18 at creation.

Could I take a character being set up at L8 and buy, say...
L1: d8 HD (24 HP, 3 points) and a 12-point skill pool. From now on, d8 HD and 12 SP/Level
L2: 18 Int (8 points) and - say - Con 14 (4 points). Now spending 16 SP/Level
L3: Con 18 (+4 points) and Str 18 (8 points)
L4: Dex 18 (8 points) and Wis 14 (4 points)
L5: Wis 18 (+4 points), +2 on each Save (6 points), and a Feat (2 points)
L6-8: Buy some weapon and armor proficiencies (apparently about 8 points for all weapons and armor - although the weapons are not listed beyond simple weapons), a few more save bonuses (say all to +4, +6 points), and and - say - 11 feats of choice.

At L8 that'd give me 124 skill points, +8 on all my saves (base plus attribute), +4 to Hit and Damage (due to strength), an average of 100.75 HP (effective rolls of 4/4/4/4/5/6/7/8 averaged plus constitution), and whatever I could squeeze out of the feats. There are doubtless better builds, but I like experts.

Next I'd probably boost my Chr just to be complete and get the Paladin's holy protection ability (another +4 to all saves for 3 points) before buying much to attack with - but that'd be next.

I'd certainly never buy extra attacks: why pay the same for something that drags down my base attack bonus? If I want extra damage, I'll buy a high BAB and get some feats to boost up the attacks: they're a lot cheaper for the effect.

Honestly, I don't think you can come up with a workable d20 system which allows the use of all the various abilities and feats in less than 50 pages or so. It'll probably be a lot longer than that in the end - and there are already several like that out there, including the BESM system, Mutants and Masterminds (as you've already noted), and Eclipse (which is already compatible with normal d20 characters)

-- I'm sure it will be a weird game :)
 

the_bruiser

First Post
Classless D&D

I've been playing around with something similar. In my mind, there are two main routes of approach:

1) Classless D&D where you have an open toolkit and effectively every character designs his own class. In this approach, there is a difference between what you can buy at first level vs. subsequent levels, such as HD progressions, spell progressions, etc.
2) Completely a la carte, where you can buy whatever, whenever.

Your approach seems to be of the first type - i.e., pick your spell progressions, attributes and HD at first level, then other stuff as you go. I don't really think of this as classless; I think of this as a way to creating custom classes, if you will. This dichotomy makes some things easier and more 'realistic,' as someone can't decide at 5th level to boost their dex from 10 to 18, but I prefer the second method myself. Also, the first method requires certain mechanics that I personally find clunky, such as capping purchases to 1/2 level, such as sneak attack.

I've heard Eclipse mentioned a couple of times - anybody have a link? I googled and just got some kind of software engine.

I've taken a stab at the second approach in a separate thread. Don't want to hijack this one, so won't expand. Re: your 50 page comment, I have actually boiled mine down to a simple five pages of charts that, once you understand how they work, completely encompass options. It's not apples-to-apples, though, since mine assumes a heavily customized G&G combat system.
 

Claudius Gaius

First Post
A shareware version of Eclipse: The Codex Persona is available at rpgnow or, if that happens to be down (it seems to be at the moment), it should be available here.

If you'd link to your five pages I'd be interested by the way - although I'm not sure we mean quite the same thing by "all the options" (I tend to include all feats, all prestige class abilities, all possible species, epic levels, deities, superheroes, alternative magic systems such as warlocks and truenamers, 3.0, 3.5, modern, future, and so on).

Edit - Never mind, I found it - and we're definitely talking about different things, if only because it cross-references to external lists and ability descriptions rather than including them.


On the character design side...

If attributes are only available at L1, and you only get 15 points - from which you must also buy a hit die size (triple effect at L1) and a skill point pool, as well as anything else you need to have for L1, then I really doubt that anyone will ever spend any points on attributes, although they may take a few +/- 2's.

If "only at character creation" means that you just treat the points available then as a big pool, then things get really odd: every sane player will buy a d12 HD for L1 for a base of 36 HP for only 5 points, you'll get characters who spent far more at L1 than was available at the time - say you get a pool of 150 points (L10) and spend 30 on a skill pool and eight on intelligence for (L10 x 34 = 340 skill points) (as admitted, I like highly-skilled characters), and high attributes will be quite common. It also means that a character who developed from lower levels will look nothing like one who was created at a higher level, so evidently high-level characters simply come into existence that way. Inexperienced youngsters may not grow up to be mighty heroes unless the gods (or GM whimsy or whatever) abruptly pours a bucket of points into them.

If "only at character creation" means that you go level-by-level but points cannot be spent on attributes and such after the game starts (not too relevant anyway, since there's no way to get any more points after the game starts unless the game master opts to just skip conventional experience points and such altogether and just starts handing out 1 character point per session or some such), then the sample design I thought up is still perfectly valid: I was presuming that the character was being set up at L8 and was simply breaking it down as a "level-by-level" purchase. Presumably the characters did develop somehow.

It will work as a game regardless, but the various options are fairly important to the world background.
 
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the_bruiser

First Post
Claudius Gaius said:
On the character design side...

If attributes are only available at L1, and you only get 15 points - from which you must also buy a hit die size (triple effect at L1) and a skill point pool, as well as anything else you need to have for L1, then I really doubt that anyone will ever spend any points on attributes, although they may take a few +/- 2's.

If "only at character creation" means that you just treat the points available then as a big pool, then things get really odd: every sane player will buy a d12 HD for L1 for a base of 36 HP for only 5 points, you'll get characters who spent far more at L1 than was available at the time - say you get a pool of 150 points (L10) and spend 30 on a skill pool and eight on intelligence for (L10 x 34 = 340 skill points) (as admitted, I like highly-skilled characters), and high attributes will be quite common. It also means that a character who developed from lower levels will look nothing like one who was created at a higher level, so evidently high-level characters simply come into existence that way. Inexperienced youngsters may not grow up to be mighty heroes unless the gods (or GM whimsy or whatever) abruptly pours a bucket of points into them.

If "only at character creation" means that you go level-by-level but points cannot be spent on attributes and such after the game starts (not too relevant anyway, since there's no way to get any more points after the game starts unless the game master opts to just skip conventional experience points and such altogether and just starts handing out 1 character point per session or some such), then the sample design I thought up is still perfectly valid: I was presuming that the character was being set up at L8 and was simply breaking it down as a "level-by-level" purchase. Presumably the characters did develop somehow.

It will work as a game regardless, but the various options are fairly important to the world background.

I'm not sure if this is meant to be a response to my post or a general response. If it's a general response, then no worries. If it's to mine, then I can respond, but maybe we should move the conversation over to my thread so as not to hijack this one?

EDIT - am responding on my other thread. End hijack.
 
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Claudius Gaius

First Post
The initial note about being interested and having found the five-page system is for you, the rest of it is referencing this thread - the sample build a bit further up and this system. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
 

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