D&D Insider - Pay tomorrow for what you get today for free?

[Mark CMG]

thats my point. I"m not dissing CMG ( i just downloaded a product the other day). I"m saying that if people like wotc products they should buy them, not think they are going to receive them for free because they bought others. Wotc produces the most polished and consistantly balanced products in d20 world. Obviously a lot of us think their products are worth paying for, and now that they want us to pay for it all, we're upset.

I don't think there's anything wrong with straightening out WotC's lurkers on what the public considers good as free web content and what the public considers good as salable product.

I don't see B-R trying to launch a new business strategy of charging $5 a month for you to come in and get some free spoonfuls of their ice cream.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Obviously a lot of us think their products are worth paying for, and now that they want us to pay for it all, we're upset.

Seriously, please stop mischaracterizing people you disagree with. Just say you think it's worth paying for this and let it go.

 

[DonTadow]

Seriously, please stop mischaracterizing people you disagree with. Just say you think it's worth paying for this and let it go.

I'm offended that you are accusing me of mischaracterizing, if I am correct, you are upset. I havn't said anything in any statement that isn't true.

1. you seem upset that wotc wants you to pay for the website
2. you like the content on there, but want it for free because you believe you pay for it when you pay for other wotc products
3. you would like the content to remain free

Now how am i mischarachterizing, slandering or breaking any of the enworld rules. I am debating. Isn't that what these are all about.

 

[Mark CMG]

I'm offended that you are accusing me of mischaracterizing, if I am correct, you are upset. I havn't said anything in any statement that isn't true.

1. you seem upset that wotc wants you to pay for the website
2. you like the content on there, but want it for free because you believe you pay for it when you pay for other wotc products
3. you would like the content to remain free

Now how am i mischarachterizing, slandering or breaking any of the enworld rules. I am debating. Isn't that what these are all about.

I think you're getting in hot water here because you are not discussing what folks are saying but rather re-framing what they are saying (sometimes ungenerously, or even flat out incorrectly) and then discussing what you have re-framed as if it is what was said.

Oh, and thanks for downloading a CMG offering!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm offended that you are accusing me of mischaracterizing, if I am correct, you are upset. I havn't said anything in any statement that isn't true.

1. you seem upset that wotc wants you to pay for the website
2. you like the content on there, but want it for free because you believe you pay for it when you pay for other wotc products
3. you would like the content to remain free

Now how am i mischarachterizing, slandering or breaking any of the enworld rules. I am debating. Isn't that what these are all about.

No, you're not debating. You're characterizing people you disagree with and then attacking that characterization that you created: "Obviously a lot of us think their products are worth paying for, and now that they want us to pay for it all, we're upset."

That's NOT WHAT PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT. They've explained it at length, and you either are choosing to not read what they're saying in response, deciding that they're not telling the truth or just deciding to ignore it to provoke a fight.

A debate requires responding to points raised instead of creating your own version of their points and then assailing them.

Take your finger away from the Submit Reply button for a minute and reread everyone else's posts.

 

[Dykstrav]

No, you're not debating. You're characterizing people you disagree with and then attacking that characterization that you created: "Obviously a lot of us think their products are worth paying for, and now that they want us to pay for it all, we're upset."

That's NOT WHAT PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT.

This is exactly right. If WotC wants to charge for a site, I'm cool with that. I've been checking their site out ever since 3E came out.

Since 2000, I've actually used ONE web enhancement from the WotC site. The city building material presented as a web supplement for the 3.5 DMG. The rest isn't worth eating up my hard drive space. "Know your enemy?" Eh... Epic Insights? Maybe worth checking out if anyone actually used the Epic Level Handbook. Sharn Inquisitive? Thought I was playing a fantasy RPG, not reading the headlines rewritten for a fantasy RPG. Snore.

This material isn't worth paying for. That's my opinion. As I control my own finances, my opinion will dictate whether or not I think this is worth paying for. I don't expect any web content whatsoever for free. What I'm saying is that the free stuff that's up now isn't worth paying for to me. If I'm going to pay for content (on a piece of paper or on a website) then it needs to be more, in both quality and quantity.

In the interests of remaining civil, I'm going to avoid naming names... But when you characterize anyone (this includes using the terms 'we,' 'us,' 'them,' or any other part of speech whereby you attempt to identify someone else with your opinions, whether they agree with them or not), what you are doing is ignoring the larger fact that it's okay to disagree on some things. It's even healthy. Being more vocal about your opinion doesn't convince anyone of its validity.

The point of any discussion isn't to "win," it's to exchange ideas. When it becomes clear that you're not interested in listening, there's not a discussion.

 

[DonTadow]

This is exactly right. If WotC wants to charge for a site, I'm cool with that. I've been checking their site out ever since 3E came out.

Since 2000, I've actually used ONE web enhancement from the WotC site. The city building material presented as a web supplement for the 3.5 DMG. The rest isn't worth eating up my hard drive space. "Know your enemy?" Eh... Epic Insights? Maybe worth checking out if anyone actually used the Epic Level Handbook. Sharn Inquisitive? Thought I was playing a fantasy RPG, not reading the headlines rewritten for a fantasy RPG. Snore.

This material isn't worth paying for. That's my opinion. As I control my own finances, my opinion will dictate whether or not I think this is worth paying for. I don't expect any web content whatsoever for free. What I'm saying is that the free stuff that's up now isn't worth paying for to me. If I'm going to pay for content (on a piece of paper or on a website) then it needs to be more, in both quality and quantity.

In the interests of remaining civil, I'm going to avoid naming names... But when you characterize anyone (this includes using the terms 'we,' 'us,' 'them,' or any other part of speech whereby you attempt to identify someone else with your opinions, whether they agree with them or not), what you are doing is ignoring the larger fact that it's okay to disagree on some things. It's even healthy. Being more vocal about your opinion doesn't convince anyone of its validity.

The point of any discussion isn't to "win," it's to exchange ideas. When it becomes clear that you're not interested in listening, there's not a discussion.

I don't get the difference between what they post on the site (and i''m not just talking about the enhancements) and what other publishers and companies have posted. There are books of locales, books of classes, books of prestiges, books of player tips, books of how-tos ect. We pay for these things. How is the content on there now not the same as the material we have paid for in the past.

IN all honesty, its unfair to the small publisher. HEre they are selling the kind of stuff they post and here is wizards giving it up for free.

 

[humble minion]

Personally, i'm rather unlikely to subscribe to any sort of WotC pay site. I don't mind doing that sort of thing for websites that I frequent but don't contribute to (I'll probably subscribe to PVP's animated series, for example), but shelling out for a marketing website for a company that already earns a fair amount of money from me seems a little over the top.

If I am to subscribe, I'll want to get a lot, lot more new, original, non-recycled material per dollar from my subscription than I do from each dollar spent purchasing WotC books. From my perspective, online material is less convenient than printed material (I can only access it from a computer, if I want a hardcopy I have to deal with printing time and expenses myself, it may disappear from the website at any time without warning, etc, etc), and from WotC's perspective, it comes with no printing, materials, or distribution costs, so it should be much cheaper to provide. If this isn't reflected in the asking price, I will begin to smell a rat.

I think the 'killer app' will be the character creation tools etc, if they turn out to be robust and reliably kept up to date with the printed material. Strangling E-Tools was probably a smart commercial move by WotC, since this gives them one single, important carrot that they can control monopolistically even despite the OGL and so forth. That's what will make this work, if anything does. I instinctively and unreasoningly hate the very idea of paying for web content, but when you're that sort of age that spare money is easier to come by than spare time, and you find yourself having to stat up an assassination squad of CR18 multiclassed templated barghests in 15 minutes for tonights game - that's when I might be tempted to swallow my revulsion and shell out the dough. Not for web enhancements and Fight Club, though...

 

[Aaron L]

But you step on your own point again.

Remember when DVDs first came out. You got all the nice and shiny extras. All the extra scenes and specials were on them. It was special. You got a lot for free. Then the studios figured out they could make more money. All of a sudden, for the same price you paid before, you just get the normal old DVD. On the same day, you could also pick up the deluxe DVD with all the extras, outtakes and special commentary by Tarrininto. Was anyone crying foul then? Nope. We realized that it wasn't going to last forever.

.

Really? The early DVDs I remember barely had a menu on them. The DVD menu on my copy of RoboCop (a very old edition of the DVD) is nothing but a scene select screen with a play button on it. But nowadays just about every DVD I get is full of extras.


But, as for the subscription the subscription plan, theres no way in heck I can afford 20 dollars a month to look at WotC's website. Even if it had elf pr0n on it.

So its perfectly ok to take what you want for free if you dont think you should pay for it?

I'd call that rather large a mischaracterization of what Mark said, actually.

 

[3catcircus]

Here is the bottom line for me: WotC can't release a print product without it being full of errors that *require* errata posted on the website - what makes you think they can release stuff daily for the website that isn't equally as poorly edited?

Nor can they release a product that doesn't fit their mold of having to fit into xxx pages - some of the best stuff that *should* have made print is relegated to a Web Enhancement instead of replacing a bunch of worthless feats and prestige classes just so they don't go over the "designated" page count for a given book.

The *only* things I use from the WotC website are the errata, web enhancements (i.e. should've been included in the book), FR stuff, and map-a-week when I want a battlemat and don't want to ruin the ones that came in the book (or that are in the book and *can't* be used because I want to use them as handouts and they are keyed).

I can't see paying for errata or for web enhancement that should've been in the book to begin with.

I can't see paying for maps when I'm using *my* ink and paper to print them.

FR articles - I'd rather see those in Dragon magazine since I have a subscription and want more "fluff" and less in the way of feats, PrCs, etc.

I think Paizo has the right solution with the Dungeon enhancements. You pay for the magazine, and web-downloadable additional stuff comes free. They then can repackage the whole thing and sell it as a hardcover (Shackled City).