D&D - Iron Heroes...between the poles

[Malachias Invictus]

So, although both games give the characters abilities, one gives them abilities which allows them to effect change upon their environment much more strongly than the other game allows its characters to do so.

That is one way of measuring relative power, but there are many others.

That's an intriguing statement.

Thank you. I do not think the rest of your post addresses it, but rather a related issue. "Ability to effect change on the environment" as a measure of power is what my statement was referring to.

My understanding is that most d20 PCs become more powerful through, a) abilities granted through rising a level (including hit die, BAB, feats, spells, etc) and b) items acquired that boost or simulate these abilities.

Some items add entirely new abilities as well (especially if you are looking at this from an individual character's perspective). Otherwise, agreed.

D&D expects a certain amount of b), while IH expects little or no b), and compensating through more of a).

Agreed. That seemed to be the design goal.

If you put the two together, you either have a game with magic items that the IH PCs don't need, making them more powerful than intended or one without items that leave the D&D PCs behind.

I think that generally this would be true.

The power of the party as a whole is moot, it's the relative power of the PCs that matters to the players.

I think that differs by group and individual, but I think that even if this does not matter to some groups and players, it is a valid consideration.

I realize that you don't necessarily agree with this, and I'd like to understand how you beleive such a difference can be compensated for.

If I were to try to include both in the same game, I would do the following:

1) Give all the characters from D&D the same hit point structure as Iron Heroes (D10 becomes D4+6), and give them reserve points.

2) Give all the characters from D&D 2-4 more skill points per level, and access to appropriate Skill Groups.

3) Eliminate cross-class skills.

4) Assign Feat Mastery levels to the D&D characters.

5) Assign Feat Mastery levels to many of the D&D feats that do not already have them.

6) Give all the characters from D&D access to the Sculpt Self feat. This feat allows you to emulate the ability of a magic item as a supernatural ability by paying 1/5 the slotless cost of the item. You do not need the actual item; that is merely the pricing structure. The abilities are supposed to be along a theme.

7) Create magic items that complement Iron Heroes characters, or alter the way existing D&D items work in order to make them compatible with both D&D and Iron Heroes characters.

8) Alter Cure and other Healing spells in a way that works well without screwing up Healing Lore. For example, allow such spells to heal as normal, but take the amount healed off the reserve total.

9) I would likely also eliminate the Barbarian and the Fighter in favor of the Berserker and the Man-at-Arms. I might also do the same thing with the Rogue and the Thief, although that might require a bit of tinkering.

I think that is it.

 

[Malachias Invictus]

High powered, low powered, high magic, low magic....thay all have meaning and it is just that some people can't graspit.

Yes, but that meaning differs between groups and individuals.

The D&D game has a baseline, the regular D&D game.

I maintain that there *is* no "the regular D&D game".

High powered, low powered, high magic, low magic is in comparison to that.

Yes, but whose campaign? I have seen wildly varying power levels using the same rules parameters.

 

[Agamon]

Thank you. I do not think the rest of your post addresses it, but rather a related issue. "Ability to effect change on the environment" as a measure of power is what my statement was referring to.

Ah, I took the post a bit out of context, my bad. I didn't read the entire thread, apologies.

I maintain that there *is* no "the regular D&D game".

I'll agree with that. It's like refering to a "regular person".

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

If I were to try to include both in the same game, I would do the following:

1) Give all the characters from D&D the same hit point structure as Iron Heroes (D10 becomes D4+6), and give them reserve points.

2) Give all the characters from D&D 2-4 more skill points per level, and access to appropriate Skill Groups.

3) Eliminate cross-class skills.

4) Assign Feat Mastery levels to the D&D characters.

5) Assign Feat Mastery levels to many of the D&D feats that do not already have them.

6) Give all the characters from D&D access to the Sculpt Self feat. This feat allows you to emulate the ability of a magic item as a supernatural ability by paying 1/5 the slotless cost of the item. You do not need the actual item; that is merely the pricing structure. The abilities are supposed to be along a theme.

7) Create magic items that complement Iron Heroes characters, or alter the way existing D&D items work in order to make them compatible with both D&D and Iron Heroes characters.

8) Alter Cure and other Healing spells in a way that works well without screwing up Healing Lore. For example, allow such spells to heal as normal, but take the amount healed off the reserve total.

9) I would likely also eliminate the Barbarian and the Fighter in favor of the Berserker and the Man-at-Arms. I might also do the same thing with the Rogue and the Thief, although that might require a bit of tinkering.

I think that is it.

I would skip 6 & 7 and add in steps dealing with giving the DnD PCs IH style defense bonuses, saves, feat acquisition, some consideration to retooling once a day class features, and I'd probably retool the Bard and Paladin.

If you want to add races I'd put in a set of racial traits that, like background traits, you could only take once.

 

[Drowbane]

Brand me for a Heretic!!

But I think I wanna run a campaign with IH made characters with normal magic items. Balance? Overpowered? Perhaps for a "stuck thinking in the box" DM

Of course, I also like Gestalt characters.

 

[Drowbane]

There is no such thing as "incredibly powerful PCs". I ran a Vampire chronicle of 7/8 years and authorized some players wanting to play methuselah, with the premise that they did have an idea on how to play one.

DMs are all powerful. If they choose so, it rains demi-liches from the sky and the 20th level party is wiped out (I'm not saying this is a good solution. It's not, but a DM could do so).

Therefore, there is no such thing as "incredibly powerful PCs". There is just things a dungeon master thinks he cannot deal with - either truly or falsely, depending of self-confidence and practice in running games. In either case, this can improve if the DM chooses so.

Amen brother! Preach it, preach it!

 

[Kaos]

DMs are all powerful. If they choose so, it rains demi-liches from the sky and the 20th level party is wiped out (I'm not saying this is a good solution. It's not, but a DM could do so).

Amen brother! Preach it, preach it!

DMs are only as powerful as the rest of the gaming group lets them be. Though the rules and traditions of D&D do encourage allowing the DM to be all powerful.

 

[Malachias Invictus]

Brand me for a Heretic!!

But I think I wanna run a campaign with IH made characters with normal magic items. Balance? Overpowered? Perhaps for a "stuck thinking in the box" DM

Of course, I also like Gestalt characters.

You just gave me an interesting idea: would Gestalt characters be balanced with Iron Heroes characters who had magic items?

 

[Lobo Lurker]

Hey, for all of you saying that combat will take longer...

1) Keep in mind that players will be paying opportunity costs for thier tokens. Each time that happens, that's an attack roll, mini movement, trip attempt, sunder attempt, power attack calculation, damage roll, etc. that doesn't happen. I'd wager that this actually 'speeds' up combat.

And you can always be a bastard and say that each player has 3 seconds to tell you what thier action is, or they default to token building.

2) The DR die is rolled by the player, not the DM (this has been stated before, I'm just reiterating). This should only consume a single players amount of time, not the entire groups. Its effect should then be negligable.

Since Iron Heroes are so combat effective and have so many 'obvious' tactical options, if combat DOES take longer than it used to, I'd be willing to bet that players ENKOY is more. And at the end of the day, player enjoyment is what it's all about.

 

[Lobo Lurker]

You just gave me an interesting idea: would Gestalt characters be balanced with Iron Heroes characters who had magic items?

Holy cow. Those characters are going to burn up the paper they're printed on. ^_^