D&D is actually kind of unique

[Asmor]

I may be way off base here, but I tend to think of D&D as the ultimate 'generic fantasy system', archetypal even.

But the more I examine it, the more I'm starting to come to the conclusion that D&D is actually fairly unique.

Important: For the purposes of this discussion, when I say D&D, I am referring to everything that can be traced mechanically back to any edition of Dungeons & Dragons. That includes retro clones, heavily-modified d20 games (Spycraft, M&M, etc), Gamma World, etc.

It started the other day, when I put out a call on twitter for systems that hit the same notes as D&D (flashy, dramatic magic; variety of races; crunchy; combat-focused). As far as I can tell, there are no other systems which really hit all those notes (as usual, the best two suggestions are Savage Worlds and Burning Wheel).

Beyond that, though, I can't think of any other level-based games off the top of my head, and the only class-based games I can think of are White Wolf's.

So here's my list of what things I feel make D&D... D&D, and how that compares to the rest of the field.

Euro-centric fantasy setting: Not especially unique.

Flashy, dramatic magic: I don't know of any other tabletop RPG systems or settings where this is the default assumption. Fairly common in video games, though.

Variety of races: Common enough in a lot of systems.

Class-based system: Uncommon if not rare.

Level-based system: While I'm sure there has to be some, I can't think of any.

Crunchy, rules-heavy system: Common enough.

Combat-focused system: I'll call this one uncommon. There are a lot of systems which put more focus on combat than on other aspects, but not a lot go to the extent that D&D does.

So flavorwise, D&D's magic is what sets it apart from others. Systemically, its focuses are somewhat common but its implementation is distinct.

Agree? Disagree? Care to fill me in on some of the alternatives I missed?

 

[B_Ryan]

i don't know, i think a lot of other systems are very combat focused - Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Well, a lot of older systems are based off of strategy miniature wargames. So the focus would be on combat.

But, while it doesn't have to be there. combat is an important part of RPGs.

 

[hayek]

I can see how d&d is somewhat unique. Since its so huge in the rpg space, I think other games have to try to be different just to attract a niche market that will buy them.

I do think GURPS can match d&d in terms of fantastic magic. Though, its obviously very different in a lot of other ways.

 

[Beginning of the End]

Beyond that, though, I can't think of any other level-based games off the top of my head, and the only class-based games I can think of are White Wolf's.

The truth is most of the industry had moved away from class-based systems by the late '80s. The only reason there's been any movement back towards class-based systems at all is because of OGL.

With that being said, there are still class-based systems to be found out there. Particularly among class and/or "throw-back" systems. For example, all of Palladium's games are class-based.

Level-based system: While I'm sure there has to be some, I can't think of any.

Where there are classes, there's usually levels. They tend to go hand-in-hand.

Flashy, dramatic magic: I don't know of any other tabletop RPG systems or settings where this is the default assumption.

Ars Magica. Exalted. Dying Earth. Just off the top of my head.

Combat-focused system:

I'll call this one uncommon. There are a lot of systems which put more focus on combat than on other aspects, but not a lot go to the extent that D&D does.

If you're just talking about "most of this game is about combat" then: (a) pre-4E that wasn't actually true of D&D; (b) even post-4E, there are still PLENTY of games out there that are more dedicated to combat.

If you're talking about the amount of tactical detail given to combat, then D&D is probably high on the scale. But it's got lots and lots of company. We can probably start with GURPS, Hero, Runequest, everything ever produced by Palladium, Weapons of the Gods, and Exalted, and then start building the list from there.

 

[Nagol]

D&D isn't really unique on the axes presented. I'll present options off the top of head for each point considered uncommon. There are certainly many, many others for each.

<snip>

Euro-centric fantasy setting: Not especially unique.

Flashy, dramatic magic: I don't know of any other tabletop RPG systems or settings where this is the default assumption. Fairly common in video games, though.

Ars Magica, Fantasy Hero, Mutants and Masterminds, Tunnels and Trolls, Chivalry and Sorcery

Variety of races: Common enough in a lot of systems.

Fantasy Hero, Mutants and Masterminds, Tunnels and Trolls, Chivalry and Sorcery

Class-based system: Uncommon if not rare.

Tunnels and Trolls, Chivalry and Sorcery

Level-based system: While I'm sure there has to be some, I can't think of any.

Tunnels and Trolls, Chivalry and Sorcery


Crunchy, rules-heavy system: Common enough.

Combat-focused system: I'll call this one uncommon. There are a lot of systems which put more focus on combat than on other aspects, but not a lot go to the extent that D&D does.

Fantasy Hero, Mutants and Masterminds, Tunnels and Trolls, Chivalry and Sorcery

 

[Stormonu]

Rolemaster, which somewhat evolved out of trying to make D&D more "immersive", hits all the same points. It's combat depth is pretty incredible (complete tables for each weapon & armor for detailing effectiveness, as well as a slew of criticals and fumble tables). Spells certainly fit the flashy aspect (and go up to 50th level). Classes/professions are also used - they determine how many skill points something cost. And of course, it has levels.

And WW's games are better known for being skill-based games, not class-based (unless you want to call being a Vampire or Werewolf a "class").

I think one of the big stick-outs for D&D is actually levels. Most other games are skill-based games where you just get points to increase your skills, there's no "leveling" involved. Even Savage Worlds isn't really a level-based game, though it uses "tiers" to allow/deny access to certain edges. Also, unlike D&D, you don't get automatic fixed upgrades like D&D's enforced improvements to attack bonus (BAB or THAC0), saves and level-dependent class abilities.

 

[Ariosto]

I put out a call on twitter for systems that hit the same notes as D&D (flashy, dramatic magic; variety of races; crunchy; combat-focused). As far as I can tell, there are no other systems which really hit all those notes (as usual, the best two suggestions are Savage Worlds and Burning Wheel).

Huh?!

I dunno about BW, but SW seems to me not just one of the latest but one of the blandest retreads. YMMV on that, but still...

I don't see how any of those "notes" is missing from Tunnels & Trolls, RuneQuest, The Palladium Fantasy RPG, Dragon Warriors, Warhammer Fantasy RP, Fantasy Hero or GURPS Fantasy -- just to scratch the surface of currently in print commercial offerings.

 

[Asmor]

The truth is most of the industry had moved away from class-based systems by the late '80s. The only reason there's been any movement back towards class-based systems at all is because of OGL.

I think class-based games require a great deal more work than point-based ones, which may explain the popularity of point-based ones.

Where there are classes, there's usually levels. They tend to go hand-in-hand.

Well, I think you've got it backwards; where there are levels, there are usually classes. White Wolf's system, for example, has classes but not levels.

Ars Magica. Exalted. Dying Earth. Just off the top of my head.

Thanks!

If you're just talking about "most of this game is about combat" then: (a) pre-4E that wasn't actually true of D&D; (b) even post-4E, there are still PLENTY of games out there that are more dedicated to combat.

Without wanting to derail the thread too much, I'd agree that prior to 3rd edition D&D had less of an emphasis of combat, but if anything I'd say the combat focus peaked in 3e and in 4e the pendulum has ever-so-slightly started to move back the other way. YMMV.

If you're talking about the amount of tactical detail given to combat, then D&D is probably high on the scale. But it's got lots and lots of company. We can probably start with GURPS, Hero, Runequest, everything ever produced by Palladium, Weapons of the Gods, and Exalted, and then start building the list from there.

Specifically, I'm talking about the (perceived) proportion of the rules dedicated to combat as opposed to exploration and interaction.

D&D isn't really unique on the axes presented. I'll present options off the top of head for each point considered uncommon. There are certainly many, many others for each.

M&M is a d20 derivative (and even a specific example I give of something which I consider to fall under the umbrella of D&D for this discussion).

I was always under the impression that Tunnels & Trolls was a retroclone. I've just looked it up and see that I'm wrong about that. Not familiar with the system at all, though.

Was not aware of the existence of Fantasy Hero. Presumably, as a Hero derivative, it's going to be point based, and so is different from D&D in implementation if not in focus.

I'd never heard of Chivalry & Sorcery, and though I know the name I'm not familiar with Ars Magica.

Rolemaster, which somewhat evolved out of trying to make D&D more "immersive", hits all the same points. It's combat depth is pretty incredible (complete tables for each weapon & armor for detailing effectiveness, as well as a slew of criticals and fumble tables). Spells certainly fit the flashy aspect (and go up to 50th level). Classes/professions are also used - they determine how many skill points something cost. And of course, it has levels.

Not familiar with Rolemaster, but from some a brief look it does seem to hit a lot of D&D's mechanical notes.

And WW's games are better known for being skill-based games, not class-based (unless you want to call being a Vampire or Werewolf a "class").

Actually, I'd call "Nosferatu" or "Ventrue" classes.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

Isn't the fact that you can apply D&D to such a wide variety of worlds, from Star Wars (D20 Star Wars) to Dark Sun, post-apocalyptic Earth (Gamma World, D20 Modern) to elves-in-space (Spelljammer), and medieval settings of all types ("traditional," Oriental Adventures, Al-Qadim, Maztica, Ravenloft, etc.), pretty unique? Basically, if you want to have an adventure, you can find D&D products and/or spin-offs to support it. It also does that differently than other "kitchen sink" style games, like GURPS.