I don't like over-powered magic very much, but I dislike low-magic settings as well. Finding a magical item should be like unwrapping a birthday gift: not every day, and you're usually very happy with it. On the other hand, magic definitely has its place in fantasy, and the best settings in my book are those with at least a bit of magic. It's part of what makes fantasy fantasy. That's also one of the reasons I don't read many fantasy novels anymore: writers are trying to make their settings and characters so realistic that 99% of the book is about character building, politics, everyday life,... and only 1% contains some true fantasy/heroic/magic/adventure stuff.
D&D is best when the magic is high, fast and furious!
- Thread starter Dragonblade
- Start date
EricNoah
Adventurer
BryonD said:
What he said ... it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I want to tell or be part of different kinds of stories, not necessarily the same story told again and again. So I might play one way in one campaign and another in another campaign. Whether I choose to go low-magic or not isn't because I think high magic is for munchkins.
I do agree with those that feel that D&D is at its core geared to a certain level of magic. But I also feel that it wouldn't take much work to ramp things down (make more use of NPC classes, slow the rate of XP gain, emphasize skill use more, make magical healing less available) though you'd then want to change the shape/style of your adventures.
The converse (making D&D work with higher magic) seems to be more and more possible with the rules, esp. Epic Level; and I think the toning down of certain D&D spells in 3.5 is actually a good thing for those players. It means that there will be more things to do and powers to achieve at the higher levels.
JChung2003
First Post
I disagree with this sentiment. A magical, or even just an unexpected mundane, solution can be just as, if not more, interesting, than the expected mundane solution to a riddle or puzzle, e.g., Alexander and the Gordian knot.DragonLancer said:
Angcuru
First Post
Re: Re: D&D is best when the magic is high, fast and furious!
Hehehe.
If you build your character right, magic items become the equivalent of spitballs.
Example: Full-Moon Lunar Berserker-Type with high Scores in Strength and Melee, as well as Deadly Beastman Form(BIG bonus to Strength) + Moonsilver Reaver Daiklaive = Dead Tyrant Lizard in one hit.
Apok said:
I've got one word for ya: Exalted.
Hehehe.
If you build your character right, magic items become the equivalent of spitballs.
Example: Full-Moon Lunar Berserker-Type with high Scores in Strength and Melee, as well as Deadly Beastman Form(BIG bonus to Strength) + Moonsilver Reaver Daiklaive = Dead Tyrant Lizard in one hit.
I experimented with low/no magic, and found I didn't like it for one reason: there's no strategy.
Special abilities and spells add a unique strategy element that rules-light narrativist games don't have. DnD is, after all, basically a wargame, so I think it needs a good dollop of strategy to be fun. However, high magic is a bit too flashy for me, so I decided to try something new: right now, I'm making classes for a low magic setting with a bunch of interesting abilities. Hopefully, that will give me the strategy element I want without the overtness of high magic.
Jeff
Special abilities and spells add a unique strategy element that rules-light narrativist games don't have. DnD is, after all, basically a wargame, so I think it needs a good dollop of strategy to be fun. However, high magic is a bit too flashy for me, so I decided to try something new: right now, I'm making classes for a low magic setting with a bunch of interesting abilities. Hopefully, that will give me the strategy element I want without the overtness of high magic.
Jeff
Dragonblade
Adventurer
Excellent responses all!
However, I feel that the word "gritty" has been co-opted by DM's who prefer to run low magic games. As if high magic games cannot be gritty.
High magic games can in fact be very gritty. And they also give a PC group far more options to overcome obstacles.
Lets say we have a low magic game where every fight is a life or death situation. And because the game is low magic, no one has anything more than a +1 sword.
To me a combat in this world comes down to die rolls. Who will survive? Who will fall? The first person to roll that critical! The battle is going to be a relatively static back and forth exchange of blows or arrows.
No in a high magic game that same battle is drastically altered. Now you have opponents who can fly, or ones blasting away with their own spells. Invisible opponents or ethereal ones.
The PCs in such a game are forced to think about strategy in more than just two dimensions. They have to use every spell in their arsenal to stay alive. The wizard cast fly on himself to get out of melee. Haste and Bull's Strength on the fighter. Perhaps their opponent has barricaded himself behind a wall of force. Well now the group frantically checks their spell list to see who has dimension door or teleport handy!
Too me this is far more exciting and also far more challenging!
I also notice some of you dislike high-magic because it allows players to get around the constraints of your plot. Well thats simple. Change your plot to embrace high magic rather than fearing it!
Have rooms that can only be reached by teleporting into them. Instead of making the dungeon a dead magic zone so that the PCs have to go through a fun house of booby traps, have the traps use magic. Walls that can only be spider climbed up! Vast chasms that can only be flown across, etc!
Give the bad guys as much or more magic than the PC's. Now the relative power level is the same as in a low magic game thus ensuring "grittiness" but the PC's have a lot more options and abilities at their disposal than swing +1 sword ad neauseum!
Now I won't defend all spells as not being game breaking, but Haste is not one of them. Rather the spells that WotC should eliminate are Detect Alignment, Scry and some Divination spells. IMO, these are the spells that ruin a good plot.
But in the end if your adventure or villains can easily be defeated by clever spell use, than that doesn't mean the spell or the game is "broken". It more likely means your adventure wasn't very well thought out.
Anyway, think about all your best gaming moments at the table. All of your favorites stories of playing with your friends. Do your memorable moments include your first level fighter running from kobolds? Or do they begin with "...And then we teleported into Lich's citadel and then the cleric cast...."?
All of my fondest gaming memories include doing something outrageous and cool in the game, something that invariably involved a sweet spell combination or taking on a powerful uber magical opponent! Aren't your fondest moments the same way?
However, I feel that the word "gritty" has been co-opted by DM's who prefer to run low magic games. As if high magic games cannot be gritty.
High magic games can in fact be very gritty. And they also give a PC group far more options to overcome obstacles.
Lets say we have a low magic game where every fight is a life or death situation. And because the game is low magic, no one has anything more than a +1 sword.
To me a combat in this world comes down to die rolls. Who will survive? Who will fall? The first person to roll that critical! The battle is going to be a relatively static back and forth exchange of blows or arrows.
No in a high magic game that same battle is drastically altered. Now you have opponents who can fly, or ones blasting away with their own spells. Invisible opponents or ethereal ones.
The PCs in such a game are forced to think about strategy in more than just two dimensions. They have to use every spell in their arsenal to stay alive. The wizard cast fly on himself to get out of melee. Haste and Bull's Strength on the fighter. Perhaps their opponent has barricaded himself behind a wall of force. Well now the group frantically checks their spell list to see who has dimension door or teleport handy!
Too me this is far more exciting and also far more challenging!
I also notice some of you dislike high-magic because it allows players to get around the constraints of your plot. Well thats simple. Change your plot to embrace high magic rather than fearing it!
Have rooms that can only be reached by teleporting into them. Instead of making the dungeon a dead magic zone so that the PCs have to go through a fun house of booby traps, have the traps use magic. Walls that can only be spider climbed up! Vast chasms that can only be flown across, etc!
Give the bad guys as much or more magic than the PC's. Now the relative power level is the same as in a low magic game thus ensuring "grittiness" but the PC's have a lot more options and abilities at their disposal than swing +1 sword ad neauseum!
Now I won't defend all spells as not being game breaking, but Haste is not one of them. Rather the spells that WotC should eliminate are Detect Alignment, Scry and some Divination spells. IMO, these are the spells that ruin a good plot.
But in the end if your adventure or villains can easily be defeated by clever spell use, than that doesn't mean the spell or the game is "broken". It more likely means your adventure wasn't very well thought out.
Anyway, think about all your best gaming moments at the table. All of your favorites stories of playing with your friends. Do your memorable moments include your first level fighter running from kobolds? Or do they begin with "...And then we teleported into Lich's citadel and then the cleric cast...."?
All of my fondest gaming memories include doing something outrageous and cool in the game, something that invariably involved a sweet spell combination or taking on a powerful uber magical opponent! Aren't your fondest moments the same way?
Dragonblade
Adventurer
As an addendum to my last post. I would also like to dispute the notion that high magic games or "magic as science" doesn't have the same sense of wonder as low magic.
Well, IMO, high magic is much more wondrous than low magic. Imagine airships flying across the sky!
Not one young dragon swooping down but a Colossal Great Wyrm stretched across a treasure horde of millions of gold pieces!
Armies of giants storming a fortress while hundreds of wizards unleash meteor storms in their midst!
A paladin champion dual wielding +5 Holy Avengers of Speed in a furious duel against a powerful Vampire lord and his +8 Unholy Reaver of Souldrinking!
Now don't these images elicit a cry of "Yeah!! That's cool!!"?? They do for me. Breathtaking images of amazement. Something that I will never see in the real world or even in any movie.
Well, IMO, high magic is much more wondrous than low magic. Imagine airships flying across the sky!
Not one young dragon swooping down but a Colossal Great Wyrm stretched across a treasure horde of millions of gold pieces!
Armies of giants storming a fortress while hundreds of wizards unleash meteor storms in their midst!
A paladin champion dual wielding +5 Holy Avengers of Speed in a furious duel against a powerful Vampire lord and his +8 Unholy Reaver of Souldrinking!
Now don't these images elicit a cry of "Yeah!! That's cool!!"?? They do for me. Breathtaking images of amazement. Something that I will never see in the real world or even in any movie.
Dragonblade, did you notice that almost every of your "strategic options" centers around spells? "They have to use every spell in their arsenal to stay alive" "Well now the group frantically checks their spell list to see who has dimension door or teleport handy!" "Walls that can only be spider climbed up! Vast chasms that can only be flown across, etc!"
This is exactly what I hate - the abilities and skills of the non-spellcasting classes are worth nothing in such a high-magic game. And if they can do something, it is thanks to a magic item.
Not my cup of tea. In my game, I have walls the PCs who are expert climbers can climb, chasms the blade dancer can jump over and then rig some rope, rooms that only can be reached through secret passages detactable through searching, tapping walls and listening, discovering the original plans in dusty archives or by getting the last architect drunk and talking.
Instead of frantically flipping through their PCs' spellbooks to check for fly, passwall or divination/scry, my players will get to play those scenes out.
This is exactly what I hate - the abilities and skills of the non-spellcasting classes are worth nothing in such a high-magic game. And if they can do something, it is thanks to a magic item.
Not my cup of tea. In my game, I have walls the PCs who are expert climbers can climb, chasms the blade dancer can jump over and then rig some rope, rooms that only can be reached through secret passages detactable through searching, tapping walls and listening, discovering the original plans in dusty archives or by getting the last architect drunk and talking.
Instead of frantically flipping through their PCs' spellbooks to check for fly, passwall or divination/scry, my players will get to play those scenes out.
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