D&D-ish systems that combine old school with modern rules

[FATDRAGONGAMES]

For old-school play with modern mechanics I love C&C and Hackmaster, but to scratch that old-school D&D itch I really love Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry.

EDIT: Spelling

 

[Nellisir]

Crypts and Things

I was interested right up until the $12 pdf cost. For $12 it ought to come with an ink cartridge and a ream of paper.

 

[grodog]

Doug: Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea may also catch your eye: HYPERBOREA

I've played it at GaryCon last year, and it's quite good

 

[nedjer]

I was interested right up until the $12 pdf cost. For $12 it ought to come with an ink cartridge and a ream of paper.

Can't really comment on the specifics of another clone, as I'm responsible for Corruption and it's cut-down relative Renegade. Can, however, outline how I went about pricing those.

I calculated zero for the S&W content, as it's available for free. Also counted zero for the layout, as it's a straightforward single-column for tablets.

In the case of Corruption I did decide to charge for the artwork - which required a lot of work to reclaim damaged images - and the large amount of new, widely compatible, content devised by myself, e.g. step-by-step adventure and campaign building, themeing campaigns, going gritty/ comic book dark, extra items and monsters and such like.

Also well on the way with an accompanying free, online mini-campaign that is playable across all these games, but tries to capture the comic book dark flavour of Corruption. Including - going as fast as I can - the means to run solo or team play.

. . . it carries a license to print as many of the manageable length players' guides as you have players. Cost for that lot: currently $7 solely for the material that isn't found elsewhere; and kind of reducing every time a new player gets a handbook.

So it follows that, personally, I would only be interested in clones where there's a generous dollop of new content/ added value.

 

[Nellisir]

Can't really comment on the specifics of another clone, as I'm responsible for Corruption and it's cut-down relative Renegade. Can, however, outline how I went about pricing those.

Well, my snarky comments about paper and ink aside, anyone selling a product is free to price it however they want. $12 is well out of my price range right now (I'm a full-time grad student with a family and no income of my own). Purchases above $5 are much less likely to be impulse buys for me anyways, whether I have money or not, so I need some kind of meaningful free preview (ie a "Basic" game), or a LOT of really good reviews. Also a really open use of the OGL. I have a lot of OSR games that I don't play, but I mine them for information and rules. Also, at least half of the reasons you list for charging don't add any value to me, or have any meaning (I don't know what the artwork looked like in the beginning, so I don't know what you did to improve it, or if it adds anything).

I'm not familiar with Corruption/Renegade, and I'm not knocking your prices (I don't know them) or that you charge anything at all.

$5 is really a cut-off for me. Above $5, you've got to convince me that I need this pdf. I won't take a risk on it. S&W convinced me. NOD did also. Quite a few others have not. I'd be curious to see sale figures on comparable products, but one priced around $5 and the other around $10. I wouldn't be surpirsed if the first outsold the second by at least two to one.

 

[nedjer]

Well, my snarky comments about paper and ink aside, anyone selling a product is free to price it however they want. $12 is well out of my price range right now (I'm a full-time grad student with a family and no income of my own). Purchases above $5 are much less likely to be impulse buys for me anyways, whether I have money or not, so I need some kind of meaningful free preview (ie a "Basic" game), or a LOT of really good reviews. Also a really open use of the OGL. I have a lot of OSR games that I don't play, but I mine them for information and rules. Also, at least half of the reasons you list for charging don't add any value to me, or have any meaning (I don't know what the artwork looked like in the beginning, so I don't know what you did to improve it, or if it adds anything).

I'm not familiar with Corruption/Renegade, and I'm not knocking your prices (I don't know them) or that you charge anything at all.

$5 is really a cut-off for me. Above $5, you've got to convince me that I need this pdf. I won't take a risk on it. S&W convinced me. NOD did also. Quite a few others have not. I'd be curious to see sale figures on comparable products, but one priced around $5 and the other around $10. I wouldn't be surpirsed if the first outsold the second by at least two to one.

Sorry - that could be read as a promo. It's more like a case of over enthusiasm with me. I've put out a kind of sizeable stack of free games and content to try to make RPGs a shade more available/ accessible. It'd have been a much shorter reply going for a sale, as less is more with the pimping

Your reply seems helpful in supporting my view that value really does matter when the cash is tight.

In keeping with that students, those working in education, librarians, RPG bloggers and reviewers get free electronic copies of Corruption via a pm/ email.

p.s. I sometimes include art by dead artists like Arthur Rackham by finding damaged copies of their work which isn't in circulation and fixing it.

 

[justinhalliday]

I (humbly) suggest Heroes Against Darkness, which seems to cover most of what you're after:

• IT'S FREE!
• It's self-contained (single 230 page PDF)
• Simple and modern d20 ruleset
• Martial powers and spells go to Level 10 but they never become obsolete, so higher level play is supported
• Combines the best aspects of Basic, AD&D, 3rd Edition, and 4th Edition
• Unified core mechanic, ascending AC, etc
• Anima-points magic system
• It's a neo-clone, not a retro-clone!

There's a thread about it here:

[Heroes Against Darkness] Neo-clone released FREE!

 

[Nellisir]

I (humbly) suggest Heroes Against Darkness, which seems to cover most of what you're after

Free is good, but your "Elements of RPG Style" post was fantastic. The fact that you actually put that thought into it speaks volumes.

 

[Libramarian]

The 3e rules also have the wrong flavour. There's too much player choice, they're too fun. I don't want fun. The 1e rules actually have the perfect tone. They are dark, gothic and oppressive.

This is a subtle and amusing point. If you enjoy the flavor of the 1e rules, I think you should run it. You could start with OSRIC and bring in rules from Gygax's DMG as you go along. I am running a sandbox module-based 1e campaign now that is a lot of fun.

The problem with 1e, for me though, is the actual rules. They're too slow and complex. I don't understand how initiative and surprise work in 1e. I don't want to look up attack and saving throw matrices. Or any matrices. I don't want weapon speed factors, or different damage versus S-M and L, or weapon versus AC.

I find that once you resign yourself to using a DM screen it's not much trouble to use attack/saving throw tables. The advantage is you can remove more and more numbers from the players' sheets. If you put enough info on the DM screen the players' sheets can just have their class, race, ability scores and gear, if you really want to keep them in the dark system-wise.

1e initiative is actually fascinating to me with how much better it is in play than how it looks on paper. The Dragonsfoot A.D.D.I.C.T. file looks crazy but actually explains it in a brilliant way. It's all summarized in one table at the end. It's just comparisons -- if melee vs. melee, do this; if melee vs. spell, do this. I basically just do side-based initiative and then when it seems important to see which of two things goes first, I do the procedure for that comparison.

It's rules-y but the battles are still quite fast because you don't engage rules until you need them. You don't collapse the wave function as it were and determine when in the abstract combat round an attack occurs until you compare it to something else. It is kind of crazy but I honestly enjoy it.

For this game, my take on old school will be high lethality, quick PC generation, no builds, sandbox play, very gamist, very challenging, very tough. The world is weird, magical, and deadly. It treats the PCs like rubes at a 1920s carny.

Lol rubes. I like it.