D&D General D&D: Literally Don't Understand This

[QuentinGeorge]

D&D has absolutely lost it's medieval fashion sense (so much as it ever had it) but the trend towards "faux medieval modernism" has been a part of fantasy since the 90s. Basically, modern audiences find breeches and stocks comical. I remember there was a small amount of outrage when Aragon was revealed in photos for Fellowship and people complaining they dressed him in a duster like a cowboy!

But it's a fight modern fantasy has lost. Even something as "close" to realistic as Game of Thrones is horribly anachronistic in it's approach to costumes. And as fantasy has moved away from medievalism towards wider places and times, it's not surprising that more and more modernistic.

Breeches aren't medieval. You're thinking of hose.

 

[Scribe]

Peak performance looks unquestioningly goofy?

We play Elf Games where it's perfectly valid to run into combat naked, and tiny 2 foot tall humanoids can chuck 6 foot tall enemies at each other as Ranged Weapons, much to my eternal dismay.

The Fantastical, the Weird. Knights and Dragons, Rogues and Wizards, God's and Damsels. Cats and Dogs living with each other. Hell, Cat People!

Yeah. Keep it weird, keep it fun and sure keep it goofy. I mean seriously...str based halflings...

 

[QuentinGeorge]

OK yes the specific piece of art in the OP is from a specific micro-setting featured in a specific book. However, I maintain that it is representative of a general trend toward more modern aesthetics in official D&D art. Look at the aesthetics in the revised core rulebook art and the art for the upcoming Eberron book. The more modern stylings in Radiant Citadel are no longer a one-off. They're becoming part of a new normal.

The change in D&D's art direction is making me feel left behind more than any mechanical changes. I started to feel left behind when streaming D&D games was all the rage, but I soldiered on ... I'm just not sure if I want to keep going any more. I mean, I'm down to one D&D campaign now, and I don't really seem to mind as much as I thought I would.

It's probably my biggest complaint with Radiant Citadel. Each of the settings is as far as I can say, way too much a direct lift of its real world inspiration, down to artistic choice. "Lived experience" does not mean I want African American authors to recreate 19th century antebellum southern US, or have two of the adventures by Latin American authors to have the same Spanish-esque colonisation in their fictional lands backstories. We seem to be going from "Zeb Cook is not qualified to write a fantasy Asia" to "Chinese American author can only write about a fantasy China and it must look and feel like the China that his grandmother grew up in"

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Not sure if you're directing this at me specifically or not,

If my post was directed specifically at you, I would have quoted you. There were multiple people complaining about high heels and other modern clothing not existing in the Middle Ages, so I made a general post discussing that broader complaint.

but I want to be clear that I am not complaining about the specific non-European cultures / ethnicities depicted in the Radiant Citadel book. I like that they gave us more variety on that front. I also want to say that I either like or am neutral about the majority of the art in that book.

For me, it's not that Godsbreath doesn't look like medieval Europe. It's that it has a 1930s southern USA vibe. I understand that this is intentional. I would be fine with it if this was a setting for a Call of Cthulhu game or a d20 Modern game or whatever. I am not fine with it as a Dungeons & Dragons setting ~ and it has nothing to do with the ethnicity or cultural aesthetics and everything to do with the perceived time period aesthetics in the art.

Again, this is gatekeeping what D&D is allowed to be and which groups of people are allowed to use their heritage in the books. I do not think Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel would be a better book if it had a “medieval only” mandate anymore than I think Sinners would be a better movie if it took place in the Mali Empire.

I don't care about the specific culture being depicted. I just want settings where armor-clad heroes wielding swords, spears, and bows won't feel out of place. Godsbreath feels more like a setting where people would not be wearing armor and would be carrying guns, not swords or bows.

And I’m saying that the specific culture that inspires the setting determines what technology, arms, and armor they have around. A Black Southern Gothic setting will not have the same weapons and armor as a medieval European one. So if one takes the position that D&D must be medieval, there will by consequence be people that aren’t allowed to be represented in the game.

D&D has guns, by the way.

This art from "Sins of Our Elders" feels more D&D to me than the art from "Written in Blood":

That art is from a setting inspired by Korean history and folklore. Korea was a major player in East Asia during the Middle Ages and there are plenty examples of medieval Korean weapons, armor, and clothing that can be used for inspiration. Of course you, someone that thinks D&D has to be medieval, think it looks suitably D&D. I don’t see how any of this counters my point.

So that we're not stuck on the Radiant Citadel so much, how about this piece of art from the 2024 PHB? This sorcerer's outfit feels too modern to me in the same way that the Mardi Gras image in the OP does.

I don’t think that looks particularly modern. And I don’t think that two settings from an anthology book plus a handful of art from the new core rulebooks says WotC is making the game as a whole modern.

Also, Eberron is a 1920s-style setting with a huge skyscraper filled metropolis. Taking place directly after a World War that was ended because a country was mysteriously nuked.

I don’t have anything against people that have their own settings and games be medieval. Mine is generally on a technology level of the 15th-16th centuries, with cannons, fire arrows, fire lances, hand cannons, hwachas, and other proto-firearms. So roughly late medieval/early modern. But I do think people saying “D&D has to be medieval” and complaining about high heels in official art are gatekeeping.

 

[Tonguez]

These are depictions of Njinga Mbande the Warrior 'Queen' of Ndongo and Matamba who fought the Portuguese in the 17th century and is remembered as "Mother of Angola".

Anyway I picked her specifically because the Gullah-Gechee people mentioned above by @Levistus's_Leviathan have been traced to the Angola-Congo area. So Note her depiction and clothing as compared to those in Radiant Citadel

 

[dave2008]

Not sure if you're directing this at me specifically or not, but I want to be clear that I am not complaining about the specific non-European cultures / ethnicities depicted in the Radiant Citadel book. I like that they gave us more variety on that front. I also want to say that I either like or am neutral about the majority of the art in that book.

For me, it's not that Godsbreath doesn't look like medieval Europe. It's that it has a 1930s southern USA vibe. I understand that this is intentional. I would be fine with it if this was a setting for a Call of Cthulhu game or a d20 Modern game or whatever. I am not fine with it as a Dungeons & Dragons setting ~ and it has nothing to do with the ethnicity or cultural aesthetics and everything to do with the perceived time period aesthetics in the art.

I don't care about the specific culture being depicted. I just want settings where armor-clad heroes wielding swords, spears, and bows won't feel out of place. Godsbreath feels more like a setting where people would not be wearing armor and would be carrying guns, not swords or bows.

This art from "Sins of Our Elders" feels more D&D to me than the art from "Written in Blood":

So that we're not stuck on the Radiant Citadel so much, how about this piece of art from the 2024 PHB? This sorcerer's outfit feels too modern to me in the same way that the Mardi Gras image in the OP does.

I am curious, how much do you think the most recent books from WotC (the MM & DD) fit into the idea of modern art:

 

[pukunui]

If my post was directed specifically at you, I would have quoted you.

Thanks for letting me know.

And I’m saying that the specific culture that inspires the setting determines what technology, arms, and armor they have around. A Black Southern Gothic setting will not have the same weapons and armor as a medieval European one. So if one takes the position that D&D must be medieval, there will by consequence be people that aren’t allowed to be represented in the game.

I think I'm OK with that. I don't think D&D as a specific game needs to be all things to all people. It's allowed to have its own aesthetic and its own limitations, just like other games do.

D&D has guns, by the way.

I know, and I don't like it. I especially don't like that WotC has put them in the new PHB.

Also, Eberron is a 1920s-style setting with a huge skyscraper filled metropolis. Taking place directly after a World War that was ended because a country was mysteriously nuked.

I've argued this point lots in other threads, so I won't repeat myself here other than to say I don't agree, and I don't like the noticeably more 1920s art nouveau stylings in the upcoming Eberron book's previewed art.

I don’t have anything against people that have their own settings and games be medieval. Mine is generally on a technology level of the 15th-16th centuries, with cannons, fire arrows, fire lances, hand cannons, hwachas, and other proto-firearms. So roughly late medieval/early modern. But I do think people saying “D&D has to be medieval” and complaining about high heels in official art are gatekeeping.

Fine. I'm a gatekeeper. I can live with that.

I am curious, how much do you think the most recent books from WotC (the MM & DD) fit into the idea of modern art:

It's a mixed bag. I like some of it, but overall, I think I like less of the revised 5e's art than I liked of the OG 5e's art.

 

[mamba]

Way to completely ignore the rest of the post. And seemingly intentionally ignore the point of it.

no, I focused on what I consider to be its central flaw… so you are telling me that the only way for ‘ethnic groups to use their history and experiences’ is for said groups to 1:1 just replicate the setting they lived in, say, 100 years ago with minimal fantasy flourishes? They cannot use their imagination and create something that is both reflective of their ‘history and experiences’ and not simply a copy of exactly that history?

As someone else said

It's probably my biggest complaint with Radiant Citadel. Each of the settings is as far as I can say, way too much a direct lift of its real world inspiration, down to artistic choice. "Lived experience" does not mean I want African American authors to recreate 19th century antebellum southern US, or have two of the adventures by Latin American authors to have the same Spanish-esque colonisation in their fictional lands backstories.

 

[Azzy]

We play Elf Games where it's perfectly valid to run into combat naked, and tiny 2 foot tall humanoids can chuck 6 foot tall enemies at each other as Ranged Weapons, much to my eternal dismay.

The Fantastical, the Weird. Knights and Dragons, Rogues and Wizards, God's and Damsels. Cats and Dogs living with each other. Hell, Cat People!

Yeah. Keep it weird, keep it fun and sure keep it goofy. I mean seriously...str based halflings...

Buh.. buh... verisimilitude and all that.