D&D Metagame - 148 classes, 608 prestige classes

[ashockney]

Game Complexity vs. Game Accessibility
Economic Engine vs. Diminishing Returns
ENWorld posted links to the web of all the classes and prestige classes out there. That is a tremendous amount of "official" material to keep track of, and manage in a game. For a new DM, I can't imagine how challenging it might be to know, understand, and plan for all of these things. In the same vane, for an experienced player or group, this versatility is a welcome change, and a fun new way to find this old game accessible and new.

How have all these classes and prestige classes affected your games?

Do you allow material from any (all) books outside the core SRD?

What have you found challenging to manage?

Has the sheer volume of available source information affected your buying? Have you capped out, and if so where? Why?

Do you find it challenging to balance the class and prestige class combinations your players devise? What combinations (c'mon min/maxers) have proven most abusive?

Finally, how has this sheer volume of information changed the meta-game environment? As designers, how do you account for the many varieties and flavors that exist? How has the volume of options available altered your groups game play?

 

[Crothian]

How have all these classes and prestige classes affected your games?

Its a great thing. It gives my players and myself the choices to create the characters we want. It allows use to have the choices and options to go beyond the limits of the basic game.

Do you allow material from any (all) books outside the core SRD?

Yes, I do have to look at it and makle sure it fits the style and concepts of my game. But I allow way more then I disallow.

What have you found challenging to manage?

Not in the least. I have found that that as long as I read the books when I first get them it helps a thousand fold in figuring things out and learning about the different options. It is one of the great lessons I learned from the Rifts game. That game has as many or more options then the d20 game and less balance. By GMing that gmae for year and learning how to handle the books it prepared me for d20.

Has the sheer volume of available source information affected your buying? Have you capped out, and if so where? Why?

I has caused me to be a little more picky when buying new things but in no way am I even close to being tapped out. As long as companies are making quality and creative books I'll be there. Even now there are many areas of d20 that need to be tackled.

Do you find it challenging to balance the class and prestige class combinations your players devise? What combinations (c'mon min/maxers) have proven most abusive?

No. I trust my players not to abuse the game. Becasue of this trust and the fact they prove I can trust them over and over, it allows me and them the option of using things that many people on these boards would not. Players that don't abuse the system are a blessing and it really helps the DM run the game and not have to worry about policing them.

Finally, how has this sheer volume of information changed the meta-game environment? How has the volume of options available altered your groups game play?

I don't think it has changed it for us. Just more informaiton out there but it is easy to assimulate into the game. It is no difference then Exalted or Rifts or other games that havbe lots of books and options for them. THe only way it has altered the way we play is it allows people to try out concepots that are odd and unusual and know they can finally find something that will fit that instead of shoe horning it into the core rules.

 

[The_Gneech]

Nah, it's very easy. Start with the three core books, period. Use them for a while 'til you get the hang of things. Then add more bits on a case-by-case basis as you find things you want/need/think are really cool.

Really, there's no point in trying to keep track of all the stuff out there; just keep track of what you're using right now!

-The Gneech

 

[Klaus]

And just to be fair, the basic class list at WotC's site is broken, 'cause it lists several classes more than once, for several books (even when the class gets just a fluff paragraph in the book, like listing the core 11 and mentioning the Eberron Campaign Setting, even though the only new classes in the ECS are the artificer and the magewright).

 

[Particle_Man]

Well, I recently ran a King Arthur game using Legends of Excalibur and only allowed phb and the excalibur book. In fact, I reduced the number of allowable classes. It worked ok.

I suppose I could run an "open" game, but would want to check each class/prestige class on a case-by-case basis to see a) if it was overpowered, and b) if it fit the theme of my campaign. I do kind of like the house rule "once you take the prestige class, you *stay* in the prestige class until you finish its levels".

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

How have all these classes and prestige classes affected your games?

They've opened up new options for players to explore and suggested new mechanics for me to add to my NPCs.

Do you allow material from any (all) books outside the core SRD?

Most anything, although I do give classes a look-over.

What have you found challenging to manage?

Having 7-14 players every week. A fully-tricked out hulking hurler would be easier to manage than an extra three players minimum, much less over a dozen.

Has the sheer volume of available source information affected your buying? Have you capped out, and if so where? Why?

Nope. I still buy new products regularly - because I enjoy them, because I use them, because I support every hint of Spelljammer 3.5 (Lords of Madness!) or because I want to write for the company.

Do you find it challenging to balance the class and prestige class combinations your players devise? What combinations (c'mon min/maxers) have proven most abusive?

Core Druid (conventionally broken)
Druid/Master of Many Forms/Nature's Warrior/Warshaper (powergamer's fighter)
Tauric War Hulk/Hulking Hurler (worldslayer)
ex-Paladin Blackguard/ex-Samurai Ronin/Nar Demonbinder/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge (quadruple threat)
Paladin/Rogue/Shadowbane Inquisitor tricked out with Divine feats (who says Cha is a dump stat)

Finally, how has this sheer volume of information changed the meta-game environment? As designers, how do you account for the many varieties and flavors that exist?

The sheer volume of information curtails what new material I can develop as a designer. Yet it also offers new mechanical options (such as the Powerful Build ability) to incorporate and inspire.

How has the volume of options available altered your groups game play?

Our Favorite Local Game Store's sales have gone up? Players who choose to take advantage of the options have to look in more books to write down the complete shorthand for their abilities so they can use them at the table? Otherwise, not much.

 

[Mercule]

WotC has very much hit the point of diminishing returns, IMO. It's nice to have some options outside what's presented in the core books, but it's hit the point where it's just not worth sorting through stuff. I only get WotC material, and not even all of that. There are over 2500 pages of rules I can throw at my players at very points.

That's overwhelming at character creation when trying to pick the right base class, feat chains, or even potential PrCs. As they level up, most players don't even look outside the PHB for options.

Taking just feats, I've banned very few. Some I would never use for one of my characters, but can see where it might be appealing. Most of my players are interested in feats beyond the core, but just looking through the Complete X books can be daunting. So, they only take expansion feats if I specifically recommend them. Compiling a list of feats didn't really help because it numbered well into the hundreds (almost 700 before I started culling with a vengence).

Ditto, in many ways, with PrCs and spells, except those are more hit-and-miss in quality. Spells I don't mind as much, though, because it gives me a source for "unique" spells as only those spells in the PHB are assumed to be common.

I am very, very seriously considering running my next game as core rules only. Personally, I'd love if WotC put out a "Basic Complete" that had the best 4-5 expansion base classes, the best score of PrCs, the best 100 or so feats, and the cream of the new magic item properties, weapons, etc. Even if it was all reprint, there's a very, very good chance I'd buy it, just to reduce clutter. As it is, I've essentially stopped buying books.

 

[Von Ether]

They've opened up new options for players to explore and suggested new mechanics for me to add to my NPCs.



Most anything, although I do give classes a look-over.



Having 7-14 players every week. A fully-tricked out hulking hurler would be easier to manage than an extra three players minimum, much less over a dozen.



Nope. I still buy new products regularly - because I enjoy them, because I use them, because I support every hint of Spelljammer 3.5 (Lords of Madness!) or because I want to write for the company.



Core Druid (conventionally broken)
Druid/Master of Many Forms/Nature's Warrior/Warshaper (powergamer's fighter)
Tauric War Hulk/Hulking Hurler (worldslayer)
ex-Paladin Blackguard/ex-Samurai Ronin/Nar Demonbinder/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge (quadruple threat)
Paladin/Rogue/Shadowbane Inquisitor tricked out with Divine feats (who says Cha is a dump stat)



The sheer volume of information curtails what new material I can develop as a designer. Yet it also offers new mechanical options (such as the Powerful Build ability) to incorporate and inspire.



Our Favorite Local Game Store's sales have gone up? Players who choose to take advantage of the options have to look in more books to write down the complete shorthand for their abilities so they can use them at the table? Otherwise, not much.

The title hints to how I see it. It boils down to the metagame relationship between the GM and his group.

I played in a game where almost any WotC class was allowed, but the players talked the GM into allowing 3rd party feats without any forethought and it was a mess. The same group got together with a another GM and they are having a grand time.

I'm now running a game with just WotC classes and so far no one has presented a combo that's a problem.

 

[Psion]

I'm of two minds about this. There are two types of character options (and more specifically, classes) in D&D: Basic building blocks and schticks.

If something is a basic building block, you have to consider its role in the game in its entirety. AFAIAC, if you have a pc base class "shaman" (for example), he won't be the only shaman out there. If you never think about or represent these other shamans, the PC exists in a vacuum and the PC's believability and connection to the setting suffers.

But there is a practical upper limit to how many such basic building blocks you can consider. That being the case, I think that you should control basic building block style classes, more specifically, 20 level classes. As such, I beleive that you should only consider new classes if it is worth the effort. "Worth the effort" usually means very flexible and plays an important role in the campaign.

Skills fit here too, since you have to consider class skills for every class; if you tack on new skills, you have to consider how it works with every other class in the game and that you have worked into the game. I honestly think outside of new craft and profession skills, it is a bad idea to expand the skills list unless you absolutely have to and cannot tuck it under another skill as a new skill use.

However, schticks -- being mainly prestige classes and feats -- are extensible. They add specialized flair and it does not hurt beleivability of the game or validity of existing classes if you add them. They represent small specialized groups or specialized abilities. (I can see if Josh reads this, there are going to be words... )

The only schticks you have to worry about it the ones that actually enter play. As you can only game so many hours a session, there is a limit to how many you will ever have to manage. The only real effect of adding new schticks is whether it is something that would add to your game. More schtick-type options have minimal impact, because the ones that don't enter play don't have to be considered at great length.

IMO/E, natch. None of this is absolute (for example, the Warden PrCs are pretty central in Second World), but that's my general perception of the situation.

 

[Psion]

Having expressed my thoughts on the complexity issue:

How have all these classes and prestige classes affected your games?

Great new options and ideas. Keeps the game fresh. The "basic four" are a bit threadbare to me.

Do you allow material from any (all) books outside the core SRD?

No. Some of it is abusive and does not fit.

But if a player asked to play a certain PrC, I'd certainly consider how it could fit in the game. Core classes, I am a little more consertive with, and feel that they deserve a bit more scrutiny regarding whether they fit into the big picture.

I do probably allow way more than many GMs here have expressed.

What have you found challenging to manage?

I don't know if it is a management issue, but I demand that classes are anchored to the campaign with the appropriate fluff/background text. Considering I run a multi-world planar game, that's not too challenging, but there are still some instances where I feel a class can afford to be a lot more adaptable.

Has the sheer volume of available source information affected your buying? Have you capped out, and if so where? Why?

Obviously it has given me more to buy.

But yeah, if a certain concept has been "mined out", I'll think real hard about whether it adds anything new to a game. Frex, despite some strange mumbles about "all the elf books" supposedly out there, Bow & Blade was the first one that really struck my fancy. But OTOH, Seafaring has been so thoroughly addressed that despite some hype around Dead Man's Chest, I have been asking a lot of questions about whether it will give me anything I don't already have.

Do you find it challenging to balance the class and prestige class combinations your players devise?

No. I feel that some classes aren't balanced, but I usually see those coming. But MANY MANY supposed balance issues whined about on various fora are much ado about nothing.

Finally, how has this sheer volume of information changed the meta-game environment? As designers, how do you account for the many varieties and flavors that exist?

Many don't pay attention to what anyone else does but WotC.

How has the volume of options available altered your groups game play?

Added variety and ideas. Interesting PCs with purpose and that fit the campaign world (a druid might have been an ill fit in my River of Worlds game, but a Tender of Worlds is just the ticket) and are different from the PCs that have populated game after game over the last 25 years. (Yes roleplaying can make that difference... but you know and I know that not all players are up to that challenge.)