D&D 5E D&D Next Blog: Beyond Class & Race

[howandwhy99]

If we cannot rely on WotC to provide good pre-built options, we cannot rely on them to provide fair compensation for pre-built options.

Why would you expect to receive compensation for taking a themed Skill-Feat package that was designed by someone else?

 

[dkyle]

You keep saying this, but you don't provide any evidence of it.

If the game is designed badly, then sure, this can happen.

But there's nothing inherent in either mechanic that makes this so.

If you're going to keep claiming this, it might be helpful if you show evidence of why this is so, or give an explanation, based on real facts (not conjecture) as to why this is so.

Look at any example D&D build ever printed, and honestly tell me it isn't inferior to customized builds. Heck, look at other games too. I'm honestly surprised this is even a contentious point. I thought the lousiness of example builds was widely known.

Now, if that's all these preset Backgrounds and Themes are supposed to be, example builds, that's fine; there's room in the manuals for example builds. But they shouldn't be treated as more than that. Don't flesh them out to 20, don't print a bunch of them, don't reserve valuable names for them. Just print a few, and be done with it.

 

[dkyle]

If we cannot rely on WotC to provide good pre-built options, we cannot rely on them to provide fair compensation for pre-built options.

Perhaps not.

But the fewer straightjackets they place on themselves, the more design freedom they allow themselves, the more likely they'll get things right. And as long as they give small extra bonuses, chances are, they'll get things more right, than if they didn't give those extra bonuses. A by-the-books pregen being underpowered is a pretty-darn-safe bet to make.

Ultimately, I've seen simple, but different, options that reasonably compete with more complicated, customizable options (Essentials classes, 4E Hybrid classes). I've not seen a DnD, or DnD-like, game where pre-built characters are even remotely viable alternatives to customized characters, to any but new or build-apathetic players.

 

[Incenjucar]

Perhaps not.

But the fewer straightjackets they place on themselves, the more design freedom they allow themselves, the more likely they'll get things right. And as long as they give small extra bonuses, chances are, they'll get things more right, than if they didn't give those extra bonuses. A by-the-books pregen being underpowered is a pretty-darn-safe bet to make.

Ultimately, I've seen simple, but different, options that reasonably compete with more complicated, customizable options (Essentials classes, 4E Hybrid classes). I've not seen a DnD, or DnD-like, game where pre-built characters are even remotely viable alternatives to customized characters, to any but new or build-apathetic players.

None of this is an argument for making pre-fab stuff more powerful than custom stuff. It's an argument for making lots of pre-fab stuff.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

On first reading this seems really cool.

Scratching the surface, it seems a reintroduction of pregens.
Scratching further, the possible dilution of the class by removing skills and feats and funneling them into background and theme gives you a simple A,B,C and D for chargen but it still seems a little wonky to me. I would prefer background and theme to be all about additional features layered over the top rather than a re-organisation of what was once "class" features.

I think I really need to know what features are going to be in race and class to truly give a valid opinion on themes and backgrounds. It seems cool but I really want to see the big picture here.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I just had a bad thought. Avenger was mentioned as a theme. At the time I assumed the 2d20 for attack rolls would be the encounter power (choose 1 target). Now I see these preset build and panic...

Is avenger going to be a feat chain?

 

[Morrus]

I don't get it. So that whole blog post basically says "We have pregenerated characters you can use if you want - just give it a name"?

OK. I guess that could be useful. Not sure the inclusion of pregens is worth a blog post, though.

 

[Incenjucar]

I don't get it. So that whole blog post basically says "We have pregenerated characters you can use if you want - just give it a name"?

OK. I guess that could be useful. Not sure the inclusion of pregens is worth a blog post, though.

Next blog will be the re-introduction of kits, which are short lists of predetermined spell lists or weapon/armor combos.

 

[FireLance]

For me, the key advantage of having themes as pre-selected packages of feats is that you can add more flavor and organization to the laundry list of feats that we've seen in previous editions. I think we've seen some initial steps in this direction in Essentials where feats were categorized into groups such as "Quick Reaction" or "Enduring Stamina". So maybe you could have a Diamond Mind Student theme which collects feats related to using speed and quick reactions in combat, while a Stone Dragon theme has feats related to toughness and endurance.

It might also make a good design guideline, in that feats should never be developed in a flavor vacuum. You would need think about how it fits into the world and which organizations or archetypes might use it first.

Depending on how feats turn out in 5e, in particular, if feats that grant extra powers or allow power swaps still exist, themes can still occupy the same mechanical space that they did in 4e.

Provided WotC gets the power balance of the basic building blocks right in the first place (in that feats are more or less balanced with each other), I wouldn't be too concerned with under-powered combinations. I can always start out with the basic concept suggested by a theme and swap out specific feats if I think they would work better.

As a side point, it appears that backgrounds would mean that there would be fewer class skills in 5e? If any class could take any background, then only those skills are are truly needed to fulfill the class concept (such as Arcana for a wizard, or Religion for a cleric) would need to be granted by class.

 

[gyor]

Classes would still have thier class features, Rogue would still get sneak attack and disarm traps from thier class, not from the Lurk theme or the thief background. Wizard would still provide spells and possibly a familiar. Fighter would still get multiattacks and Clerics would still recieve turn undead just for being clerics.