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D&D Political Systems

fusangite

First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
Well, rulers come in a lot of forms, too. Warrior-kings were often set up in a binary system between them and the clergy of the national faith. You can't rule on strength of arms alone, you need someone to keep the daily life in line. Arguably, the high priest actually *led* the country, while the king was off defending it in such a system.
Can you give me an example? In ancient Judea, the offices were fused, of course. In polytheistic systems, there simply is not enough power concentrated in a single cult to pull this off. In Orthodox Christianity, there were rare episodes that usually abruptly ended with a smackdown of the Patriarch (e.g. Photius, Nikon). In the Islamic world, this was not really the way the Sultan-Caliph balance worked either, though I am decidedly less familiar with this history and am happy to be corrected.

Ultimately, though, D&D worlds are polytheistic and that's what we're talking about. In such a model, I cannot imagine how one cult could simultaneously grab all that civil authority while simultaneously gaining dominance over all others.
So, in that example, the high priest would be the one with the highest Profession: King skill.
I think the role you are talking about is that of a mandarin, not a high priest. Councilors, mandarins and other members of court might carry out these tasks on behalf of a king, sure. But I would caution that the way D&D appears to work makes it hard to sustain a bureaucratic despotism along the lines of imperial China, Byzantium, Russia, etc. precisely because in a contest between sound administration and a lot of fireballs, the sound administrator is not very well-advantaged. Remember, also that a Profession (Mandarin) skill cannot substitute for charisma-based skills and feats. The fact that your orders have a better track record can only adjust the DC against which the aspiring despot paladin needs to roll.
A warrior-king is nothing without the high priest's blessing.
Sorry but I do not buy your theory. Furnish me with some real world examples or some sound sociological theory backing this up.
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Sorry but I do not buy your theory. Furnish me with some real world examples or some sound sociological theory backing this up.

I don't think it's nessecary, I think we're largely talking about the same thing: One needs more skill than a single person (or character) has in order to successfully run a long-lasting political system beyond that one character. You need institutions, and the skills to set up, run, and govern those institutions aren't always in the hands of the charismatic leader that the people want to follow, or the man who comes in and slays the dragon.

One person doesn't rule. Organizations, institutions, and systems rule. The Throne rules. The King is just the current guy upon it.

Ultimately, though, D&D worlds are polytheistic and that's what we're talking about. In such a model, I cannot imagine how one cult could simultaneously grab all that civil authority while simultaneously gaining dominance over all others

Viewing polytheism as a collection of cults is rather inaccurate, though. It's more that the institution of the faith or governance (and those at the head of the institution) are arguably more nessecary for the operation of a kingdom than the king. All the "cults" really work as one whole rather than compete with each other for the most part, as far as the enduring institutions are concerned.

Though D&D-ized polytheism isn't like most human polytheisms in this regard, the idea that the institution is greater than the individual still works with comptetative polytheism. It merely means that the locally dominant institution (church of Pelor, church of Hextor, whatever's good in the local region) is what needs to be won over.

So if the institution is more important, then the outsiders (adventurers) will still be unlikely to rule it, because they don't have the propper connections and channels within the instititution. The power of rulership is the power to get those you rule to do what you want willingly. The hand that slew 1,000 goblins single-handedly may get to sit on the richly bejeweled throne, but it takes more rulership power ("Profession: King skill") to procure a richly bejeweled throne and invest it with sacred significance than it takes to slay 1,000 goblins by yourself.

And that's why adventurers don't rule the world, in general. They are outsiders, and while they may do heroic things of legendary significance, they don't often know the intricate details of the courtly melieu like an aristocrat might. They know how to kill 1,000 goblins, they may have the Cleave feat, but I don't see many adventurers taking the Skill Focus (Political Manuevering) feat unless they ALSO make good institutional rulers.

The "real rulers", the ones behind the throne, are the ones who can get the job done. They are the manipulaters of our institutions (which include religious overtones, even today), the ones who can change our daily lives, the ones who make us believe that the system works. They aren't the guy who kills 1,000 orcs, they're the guy who knows that because of the lack of rain the fields will yeild low and that people will appreciate moves to stock up on food for the cold winter ahead. While an adventurer could know that, those that do tend to not last very long when confronted by 1,000 orcs. Thus, you have NPC's who know the system at the head of it, as the builders of the throne, allowing powerful adventurers to sit uppon it. Power isn't in sitting on the throne, it's in working a nation so that sitting on a simple wooden chair is an event worthy of note.
 

Agback

Explorer
Hussar said:
Well, it could quite possibly be that democracy, at least any modern definition of the word, would be unbelievably anachronistic in a fantasy setting. You don't find democracy until well after medieval times. Yes, Greece was democratic. As long as you were male, owned land, not a slave, and were a citizen. That's not exactly democracy as it is usually envisioned.

It was good enough in most places up until the 1920s.

Secondly, feudalism WORKS.

If the objective is to produce near-constant civil war, I guess it does.
 

Agback

Explorer
fusangite said:
But you do find Republican governance systems like Novgorod, Venice and some other Italian states.

Also in many city-states in the Languedoc (South of France) before the Albigensian Crusade / French conquest 1208-1228.
 

fusangite

First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
One person doesn't rule. Organizations, institutions, and systems rule. The Throne rules. The King is just the current guy upon it.
Personal rather than bureaucratic governance has been the rule through most of human history. Your idea that bureaucratic rule, based on the rule of law is typical of how pre-modern socieites have been governed is not accurate. Feudal governance, what we are talking about here, is largely personal in character. The throne rules when there is a militarily powerful, forceful personality on the throne; when such an individual isn't there, governance is largely local; the role of the king recedes into the background.

While despotic states (as opposed to feudal states) have tended to build institutions national institutions with more life to them like the Byzantine and Chinese bureaucracies, the case I am making here is that because of the even greater inequality of power in D&D worlds, relatively flat organizations like despotic states are much less likely to arise.
Viewing polytheism as a collection of cults is rather inaccurate, though.
On what basis do you make this claim?
It's more that the institution of the faith or governance (and those at the head of the institution) are arguably more nessecary for the operation of a kingdom than the king.
Except in Indian polytheism, there is no general "faith" in a polytheistic society. What you get in polytheisms are competing philosophies with different ideas about what the cosmological system means. In ancient Rome, Platonists, Aristotelians, Pythagoreans, Epicureans and Stoics competed for the role of defining the overarching social, moral and metaphysical system that the universal belief in the gods entailed. Similarly, in China, Buddhists, Confucians and Taoists competed for this role. Even in India, where the Brahmin caste existed and Vedic thought had a special place in defining the social order, Vedic thought nevertheless competed with Sikhism, Janism, Buddhism, etc.

I think you have an incorrect idea of what polytheism looks like on the ground. I see nothing in the D&D rules saying that polytheism works the way it did in India; I am therefore inclined to see it working as it has everywhere else.

So, what institution are you talking about?
All the "cults" really work as one whole rather than compete with each other for the most part, as far as the enduring institutions are concerned.
Again, you misunderstand polytheism. The cults don't work together. They share assumptions. This is like saying that in a capitalist society, corporations don't compete with eachother. Corporations operate within a shared understanding and economic environment; this should not be construed as cooperation.

Also, what institutions are you talking about?
Though D&D-ized polytheism isn't like most human polytheisms in this regard, the idea that the institution is greater than the individual still works with comptetative polytheism.
What institution are you talking about?
So if the institution is more important, then the outsiders (adventurers) will still be unlikely to rule it, because they don't have the propper connections and channels within the instititution.
But you are assuming static, stable institutions. I think this may be because you conflate a system being stable with the institutions within it being stable. To do so is to misunderstand feudalism.
The power of rulership is the power to get those you rule to do what you want willingly.
Since when!? Again, you are acting as though the way government works in the 21st century can be helpfully generalized to the past.
The hand that slew 1,000 goblins single-handedly may get to sit on the richly bejeweled throne, but it takes more rulership power ("Profession: King skill") to procure a richly bejeweled throne and invest it with sacred significance than it takes to slay 1,000 goblins by yourself.
Make a game mechanical argument for why this should be true.
but I don't see many adventurers taking the Skill Focus (Political Manuevering) feat unless they ALSO make good institutional rulers.
How is this skill focus necessary to convince the court that you can kill them all in 12 seconds? All this skill focus would do is confer +3 to a diplomacy check or whatever. In my view, the circumstance bonus conferred by killing people to such checks would be decidedly larger.
The "real rulers", the ones behind the throne,
These people are the real rulers some of the time. Not all of the time. And this depends on circumstances.
are the ones who can get the job done. They are the manipulaters of our institutions (which include religious overtones, even today), the ones who can change our daily lives, the ones who make us believe that the system works.
But government by stable bureaucratic institutions based on the rule of law is an incredibly recent development.
 

fusangite

First Post
Agback said:
If the objective is to produce near-constant civil war, I guess it does.
Explain how a system other than feudalism could have yielded a more peaceful, safe place in early medieval Europe than vassalage was able to.

The feudal system was the best option given the historical and physical conditions in effect at the time.
 

Hussar

Legend
Agback, I would also point to 300 years of peaceful existence in Feudal Japan during the Edo period as a pretty decent example of Feudalism at work.

The near constant civil war was primarily due to a lack of codified rules for inheritance. It was fairly late before dynastic thrones were founded in Europe. When there is no clear rules for who gets to sit on the throne next, then you get instability.

As far as early forms of democracy, well, I would point out that it's much closer to Oligarchy than democracy when you limit voting to very small groups of wealthy people. Not many people would consider Greece to be truly democratic.

Just to step into metagame for a second. How could you possibly make democracy work if DnD physics existed? We know for a fact that people are not equal in a DnD setting. A 10th level character truly IS better than a 1st level one. The other major impediment to democracy would be determining what constitutes a person. In other words, should a wizard's familiar get a vote? How about a paladin's warhorse?

Ok, that's facetious. But, the point is still true. How would a state possibly determine what constitutes a person in a fantasy setting?
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Personal rather than bureaucratic governance has been the rule through most of human history. Your idea that bureaucratic rule, based on the rule of law is typical of how pre-modern socieites have been governed is not accurate. Feudal governance, what we are talking about here, is largely personal in character. The throne rules when there is a militarily powerful, forceful personality on the throne; when such an individual isn't there, governance is largely local; the role of the king recedes into the background.

The power of rulership is exemplified by the ability to get people to do things because you said so. Those who have military power already have that ability (they got an army to follow them), those who have "forceful personalities" are able to gain that power by virtue of such. But just being charismatic or strong by yourself doesn't do anything for your power. You have to be able to manipulate others, and when you manipulate others, you form a system of governance, and that system of governance outlasts your personal power, or your empire dies with you.

The kings may have been more or less influential depending upon how good they were at manipulating the institutions, but the very fact that they could be called Feudal Kings shows that it was the institution of feudal kingship that ruled the people, not the individual kings. Their devotion lied toward the office, not toward the individual, which is well-shown in your example: when the king wasn't a successful ideologue, they didn't get a new king, but rather had more powerful local idealogues take the center stage without disrupting the overall system. The Kingship lasted, and those who gave the Kingship power (the local lords, the church) obviously were able to wield more power as a whole than the one guy on the throne.

On what basis do you make this claim?

The practice of polytheism isn't the practice of choosing one god over another in a world full of gods, but rather devoting oneself to the correct gods for the job. There were never Priests of Odin and Priests of Thor, there were kings and warriors who paid them both devotion when either was due it. The polytheisms that break this rule tended to be not one religious system, but many shoehorned together by an empire, nation, or tradition (such as Egyptian polytheism, with it's heavy geographical influence). I make this claim based on what polytheism is for those who practice it, which is not just a bunch of competing monotheisms, but rather one system for dealing with the supernatural world (which is part of why conversion to monotheism is often seen as easy -- polytheism easily accomodates new spirits). The image that comes instantly to mind is the Patamuna. They may have competing shamans, but each type serves a different role in the community that the community as a whole accepts as the real way to deal with the spirit world.

In ancient Rome, Platonists, Aristotelians, Pythagoreans, Epicureans and Stoics competed for the role of defining the overarching social, moral and metaphysical system that the universal belief in the gods entailed. Similarly, in China, Buddhists, Confucians and Taoists competed for this role. Even in India, where the Brahmin caste existed and Vedic thought had a special place in defining the social order, Vedic thought nevertheless competed with Sikhism, Janism, Buddhism, etc.

Platonism isn't polytheism, though, and neither are (most kinds of) Buddhism, Confucianism, or Taosism. In fact, many of those Roman and Chinese philosophies lacked any kind of real theism at all, being more concerned with a moral guidance than the world of the unseen. These philosophical systems absolutely competed, because their ideological control is key, but that's no different from the myriad Christian sects or the sweeping variety of ways to run an umma correctly, or the different ways of practacing Judasim. They are all about ways to change existing structures, about institutionalized ideological control, which means it is the belief and the structures that maintain it that is more key to the rulership of a nation than the person who espouses such beliefs.

Polytheism itself is no way to run a nation, but ideologies based in those assumptions absolutely can be.

So, what institution are you talking about?

The institutions of governance and rulership, the tradition of the people, the logistics that allows public works, the framework of the military, the designation of a holy site, the power to manipulate people through established, transcendant authority that goes beyond the individuals excising that authoirty.

Feudal Kingship is an institution, a tradition, a particular order to things. That way didn't change drastically for hundreds of years because people believed in it, not because they believed in individual kings. When this institution loses that ideological credibility, it falls, as so many Chinese dynasties have.

Since when!? Again, you are acting as though the way government works in the 21st century can be helpfully generalized to the past.

You're using a lot of demands and presenting my argument for me. Do you want to have a conversation, or would you just like to go on assuming that I'm wrong and sure of your own veracity? Because while I'm interested in talking about the underpinnings of faith and devotion as nessecary to the operation of a successful rulership, I'm not really interested in trying to win an internet argument, so if it's the former we can talk, and I'd ask you to listen rather than assume my actions smack of ignorance, and if it's the latter, I'm wasting my time either way, I guess.

Rulership is evidenced by getting people to do what you want. If you get the peasants to pay their taxes, go to war for you, and say "Long live the king!" congrats, you're a successful monarch. If you have a revolt under your rule and managed to be killed by a bunch of revolutionaries, you're not. Rather, the leaders who got them to revolt are the successful rulers. People won't do what they don't believe in unless forced, and force only gets you to get them to do it 'till your back is turned.

It's the difference between the Intimidate skill and the Diplomacy skill.

Make a game mechanical argument for why this should be true.

The mere existence of the Aristocrat class implies that some people rise to the top despite not being ludicrously mighty weavers of magic and steel, that there are some things birth or wealth can get you that slaying orcs cannot.

How is this skill focus necessary to convince the court that you can kill them all in 12 seconds? All this skill focus would do is confer +3 to a diplomacy check or whatever. In my view, the circumstance bonus conferred by killing people to such checks would be decidedly larger.

It's not nessecary to bully the court into acting, nor is it wise. This would quite obviously be a use of the Intimidate skill, not Diplomacy. And Intimidate doesn't last long, nor does it get people to follow you unless you remain constantly in their presence.

Rather, convincing the court that you are right, that you should be supported, and that you are the man with the right knowledge and skills and blessings to lead to prosperity is, at it's most cruel, a Bluff check.

Even game-mechanically, threats of violence are not the best way to lead a group of people.

Historically, think of the Bedouin conversion to Islam. The Bedouin were undoubtedly stronger, tougher, faster, and better warriors than the civilized folk of Mecca and Medina. In order for the Islamic Empire to even come to first fruition, it was nessecary for the Bedouin to embrace a theology of a militarily weaker people, an ideology that they didn't need.

But government by stable bureaucratic institutions based on the rule of law is an incredibly recent development.

Institutions are a human norm, from the rites of initiation in tribal societies to the Catholic Church, people look for traditional systems to measure new changes by. It's not based on the rule of law, but on the human desire to believe in something beyond themselves, on the imaginairy sphere of faith, devotion, and ideology.

Maybe "institutions" is too precise a word. Traditions? Social structures? Whatever. The point is that it is the system that has power, not the individual players in that system. Those who manipulate the system the best can excise more personal power than others. In D&D, this isn't measured by level precisely, but in a host of skills that many adventurers choose not to advance, thus making most adventurers rather poor rulers (though great people for the rulers to have around).
 
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Andor

First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
Maybe "institutions" is too precise a word. Traditions? Social structures? Whatever. The point is that it is the system that has power, not the individual players in that system. Those who manipulate the system the best can excise more personal power than others. In D&D, this isn't measured by level precisely, but in a host of skills that many adventurers choose not to advance, thus making most adventurers rather poor rulers (though great people for the rulers to have around).

I take it you're not a fan of the Hero theory of history? :D :p

Institutions are powerful things, but there have been people in history who smashed them flat. Sometimes the change only lasted for their lifetime. The Pharoh who tried to introduce monotheism springs to mind. Sometimes a whole new set of social institutions spring up at their command, like Ieyasu Tokugawa.

It's likely that the durability of the institutional change that High Level heros can accomplish will be affected by these hypothetical 'Profession King' skills, but the personal power of High Level Heros in their own lifetimes cannot really be argued.

If you honestly want to come up with a good system of goverment for DnD, construct one that co-opts the power of adventurers as they come up in ranks, and brings them into the system and inculcates them with it's institutional values as they grow in power. That system I can believe in. A strictly hereditary feudalism that ignores the 20th level fighter because he was born a peasant? That system lasts exactly as long as it takes that peasant hero to get ticked off.
 

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