D&D 5E D&D Races vs. Monsters (take away lessons on converting)

[FormerlyHemlock]

I think 5e is off to a reasonably good start. Feats are powerful enough to provide a good option to allow players of monster characters to opt-in to special abilities while allowing those who just want to look like something from the MM without advanced abilities (I have no idea why anyone would ever want to do that--maybe that's what I'm not getting), to avoid paying for such abilities.

Presumably because they like the fluff. Being a svirfnebling with no Nondetection/Disguise Self because you want to be an underground miner dwarf who hates drow and sometimes gets polymorphed into a Hook Horror and becomes friends with Drizz't is no crazier than being a dragonborn with a weak breath weapon just because you think it's cool; and it's significantly less crazy than being a bear who pumps Charisma purely so he can bluff everyone into believing he's not a bear. (True story.)

 

[Sunseeker]

Except that you are not playing that monster but a failed cloning experiment which might look like the monster but isn't.

So? If you want the "special features" of the monster, the breaths, the beams, the psychic powers you can feat into them later, as this design clearly illustrates.

I made threads on this subject a long time ago. For most monsters to get the "feel" of the monster you need very little beyond appearance.
Drider? Spider-body and spider-walk, maybe the ability to shoot webs.
Medusa? Snake-like hair and appearance and death-ray eyes, which really wouldn't be all that great for a party-based game anyway.
Ettin? Large size. Two heads.
Dragon? Flight, breath weapon.
Gelatinous cube? Square shape, gooey body, a special grapple attack.

Toss in some stat adjustments and boom, you're the monster!

Everything else that a monster has is largely baked-in class features. Spellcasting, fighting styles, and in 3rd literally the same feats any player could take.

 

[Sunseeker]

Presumably because they like the fluff. Being a svirfnebling with no Nondetection/Disguise Self because you want to be an underground miner dwarf who hates drow and sometimes gets polymorphed into a Hook Horror and becomes friends with Drizz't is no crazier than being a dragonborn with a weak breath weapon just because you think it's cool; and it's significantly less crazy than being a bear who pumps Charisma purely so he can bluff everyone into believing he's not a bear. (True story.)

Yeah, the bear-who-bluffs-that-he's-not-a-bear story has gone around quite a bit. I've had several people I play with try it and more than I care to count tell me about it. It's not that funny, it's mostly an annoying rules abuse. Would rather let people be a half-snake woman with snake hair and a daily, temporary paralysis eye-ray.

 

[Sacrosanct]

A while ago, I had created the minotaur playable race version. I think this was right after the MM came out. Can't remember, but it was a while ago.

Anywhoo...here is the minotaur statblock:

S: 18, D: 11, C: 16, I: 6, W: 16, Ch: 9
perception +7
darkvision 60ft, languages: abyssal
Charge, labyrinthine recall, reckless

How I converted it (using my philosophy above)

+2 to strength, +1 Con
darkvision 60ft, languages: common, abyssal
Keen Sense: auto proficiency in perception
Keen Mind: advantage on all saving throws vs confusion, and advantage on all survival checks in regards to navigation
Gore: You can attack with your horns as natural weapons you are proficient in. Base damage is 2d6, increasing to 3d6 at level 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, 5d6 at 17th level (modeled after the dragonborn damage for breath weapon)


Looking back, I wasn't too far off as to what would fit within the guidelines.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yeah, the bear-who-bluffs-that-he's-not-a-bear story has gone around quite a bit. I've had several people I play with try it and more than I care to count tell me about it. It's not that funny, it's mostly an annoying rules abuse. Would rather let people be a half-snake woman with snake hair and a daily, temporary paralysis eye-ray.

Oh, I don't disagree. But I brought up the bear in reference to "why would anyone want to be a monster without powers?" as a simple example of how players do lots of things for no mechanical benefit just because they like the fluff. Judging by your post #13 I think you understand.

I had no idea the bear thing was ubiquitous BTW. Some guy that my players used to play with did it at one point; I suppose he may have gotten the idea off the Internet.

 

[Sunseeker]

Oh, I don't disagree. But I brought up the bear in reference to "why would anyone want to be a monster without powers?" as a simple example of how players do lots of things for no mechanical benefit just because they like the fluff. Judging by your post #13 I think you understand.

I had no idea the bear thing was ubiquitous BTW. Some guy that my players used to play with did it at one point; I suppose he may have gotten the idea off the Internet.

All my players who've tried it got it off the 'net, so yeah, I think someone did it as a joke and then it turned into a meme and yeah.

But yeah, I'm a BIG fan of Ba*tards and Bloodlines monsters, but they've got arguably some of the zaniest LA. It epitomizes the failure of the LA system as a useful measure of PC power, and I've made a few half-hearted attempts to cut them down into something along the lines of a "normal" playable race and I guess I'm going to restart that effort to make them 5th edition. I'd REALLY like to run a really high-fantasy game where there is just magic to the point of absurdity and include all these exotic races in them.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Would rather let people be a half-snake woman with snake hair and a daily, temporary paralysis eye-ray.

See, this is what doesn't make sense to me. Why do all the other medusae in the world get permanent petrifying gazes, poisonous snake hair, and whatever other abilities innate to their species, but the character isn't given them? Was she born with some sort of disabling condition? Are there two species of medusa, and the player's character happens to be from the "lesser medusa" subrace?

I actually don't have a problem if the answer to either of those is "yes." What I have a problem with is when there isn't an answer to that--when it's just, "no reason, that's just how we roll." I can't see that making sense with the level of world-immersion many people (including myself) play with.

Maybe it really is an issue with how casual your D&D is. If you aren't really worrying about deep immersion, the fact that your PC member of the race lacks the innate supernatural features all of his friends and neighbors were born with isn't an issue. I just don't enjoy running or playing in that type of game.

I'm a D&D simulationist. That's just how I roll. I'm automatically going to reject any explanation that ignores that. Fortunately, I think the designers this time around actually tried to accommodate that. Basically, it seems like they were saying to themselves, "let's make it so that simulationists and non-simulationists can both customize it and enjoy it without much trouble." Feats to add special abilities to races, and actual lore with the feats saying, "not all members of the race have these abilities" is a great way to handle it. Drow commoners can't cast darkness. Svirfneblin commoners don't get the suite of spells. It requires special training (represented either by the advancement in the MM stats, or by class levels or feats) to get those. It's up to an individual PC whether he wants to learn to do those things or not.

Excellent framework, and I hope they stick with it.

 

[Ibn Khaldun]

My stab at an answer would be that while all the other medusas spend their days practicing their medusa-ness, PC medusa is out adventuring and gaining her class abilities.

This is, I think, what is being said above and I agree. I'm not sure how I would handle a PC wanting to level their medusa-ness though. Are there rules for that at present?

 

[Sunseeker]

See, this is what doesn't make sense to me. Why do all the other medusae in the world get permanent petrifying gazes, poisonous snake hair, and whatever other abilities innate to their species, but the character isn't given them? Was she born with some sort of disabling condition? Are there two species of medusa, and the player's character happens to be from the "lesser medusa" subrace?

My usual excuses are:
You're younger and your powers are less developed or yes you are a "weaker subrace that has to resort to adventuring to become more powerful"...which is arguably a better tactic than relying on your racial heritage regardless.

The first route usually makes the most sense, because arguably the monsters you're fighting in dungeons are not the "young" of the species, but the developed and powerful. This is for two reasons: 1: the developed and powerful present more of a threat to mundane humanoid civilization and 2: noone really wants to represent you going in and slaughtering the young and innocent, even if they're the monstrous innocent.

I actually don't have a problem if the answer to either of those is "yes." What I have a problem with is when there isn't an answer to that--when it's just, "no reason, that's just how we roll." I can't see that making sense with the level of world-immersion many people (including myself) play with.

Well, there ya go. I don't do things without a reason and I agree I don't like things that are done without a reason.

Maybe it really is an issue with how casual your D&D is. If you aren't really worrying about deep immersion, the fact that your PC member of the race lacks the innate supernatural features all of his friends and neighbors were born with isn't an issue. I just don't enjoy running or playing in that type of game.

Honestly I find it MORE immersive to diversify a race, some members weaker, some members stronger, older, faster or tougher than others. I mean, what is there some kind of factory that just pours genetic goo into a mold that makes completely by-the-book, standard monsters? I mean shoot I think Dragons are really one of the only races where there's a progression from young-to-old in the species.

 

[neobolts]

* Most Importantly: You don't need to account for every last thing in the MM. Monsters can have more HP, better stats, even special abilities their PC brethren don't. Include the iconic ones, but don't feel you need to include everything. PCs are PCs; they get their own special toys.

I hope that helps homebrewers and converters some. Now, get working on that minotaur or rogue modron race you were thinking about!

This approach is SO welcome. ECL never quite did what I wanted. The only time we had a real good go with it was our "everyone plays an ECL monster race" campaign.