D&D 5E D&D Races vs. Monsters (take away lessons on converting)

[TerraDave]

What happens to the analysis if you assume the monster in the book is classed? Is it possible to derive the NPC monster's class or a near equivalent? What if you assume that NPC's get a weaker version of the PC class? What if you assume that the monster has a racial feat of some sort, not currently available to PCs?

Not even NPCs--bandit captain, berserker, veteran, and so forth--correspond to exact PC classes. And math is always tweaked for NPCs to balance the flat math and that CR is based on a default of 1 opponent vs a group of PCs. (You can of course also have groups of opponents). This leads the default math for NPCs and PCs to diverge a little bit.

 

[Celebrim]

Not even NPCs--bandit captain, berserker, veteran, and so forth--correspond to exact PC classes. And math is always tweaked for NPCs to balance the flat math and that CR is based on a default of 1 opponent vs a group of PCs. (You can of course also have groups of opponents). This leads the default math for NPCs and PCs to diverge a little bit.

Yes, I figured.

Well, I figure that will go on until people realize why people got tired of it with 1e/2e, then the pendulum will swing the other direction. In the mean time, to each their own.

As a player and DM, I got so tired of the NPC stats being incompatible with PC stats in 1e and wholly different systems and levers being pulled to try to maintain challenge, that I'm pretty sure that though I feel the 5e rules themselves are fairly tight and would need only a light hand, I'd be house ruling all over the MM to get things where I'd want them to be.

I'm a huge fan of the work of Tracy Hickman, and there is this one encounter in I3 Pyramid that is at the same time both awesome and pathetic. In it, the party (potentially, if stealth or diplomacy fail) faces off against like 20 fanatic dervishes. According to the stat blocks, they are all 5HD monsters. But if they were really 5HD monsters, the encounter would be overwhelming. But Tracy lists the hit points for you, which are pretty much exactly the same results you'd expect if someone through 20 1d10's and recorded the hit points. By the rules, hit point totals like '1' or '2' are impossible for a 5HD monster. So in other words, those 20 5HD monsters are really just 20 1st level fighters with some boosts to attack bonus and saving throws. On the one hand, it's awesome how Tracy Hickman breaks the rules to produce the particular effect he's going for. On the other, we've got a rules set that has to be broken continually to achieve even simple effects, in large part because the only knob 1e really offered for tweaking a monster was HD.

Not having some sort of system for monsters, even one that you specifically exempt a particular monster from, seems simple in the short term but is often complex in the long term - for example needing very different entries for both the monster and the PC race, or doing conversion when a former NPC becomes a PC.

 

[Ibn Khaldun]

So how would you account for the fact that, mechanically, PCs and NPCs are not identical? A PC is meant to be played with its ability use spread and managed over the length of a session (or multiple sessions) whereas an NPC/monster is generally meant to go all-in during a single encounter.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Well, I figure that will go on until people realize why people got tired of it with 1e/2e, then the pendulum will swing the other direction. In the mean time, to each their own.

Except that some of us--possibly a lot of us--didn't get tired of it. I hate, and have always hated, the idea that PCs and NPCs are bound by the same system, and I'm all four the recent editions' decision not to go that route.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Not even NPCs--bandit captain, berserker, veteran, and so forth--correspond to exact PC classes. And math is always tweaked for NPCs to balance the flat math and that CR is based on a default of 1 opponent vs a group of PCs. (You can of course also have groups of opponents). This leads the default math for NPCs and PCs to diverge a little bit.

Not all NPCs use MM entries. Some of them are built with classes just like PCs. I prefer the latter although I use the former for mooks.

 

[Sunseeker]

So how would you account for the fact that, mechanically, PCs and NPCs are not identical? A PC is meant to be played with its ability use spread and managed over the length of a session (or multiple sessions) whereas an NPC/monster is generally meant to go all-in during a single encounter.

By giving the playable NPC race the iconic abilities and then taking a class. Basically how Dragonborn work.

 

[Ibn Khaldun]

By giving the playable NPC race the iconic abilities and then taking a class. Basically how Dragonborn work.

Okay so, for example, what would your PC Medusas look like?

 

[TerraDave]

Yes, I figured.

Well, I figure that will go on until people realize why people got tired of it with 1e/2e, then the pendulum will swing the other direction. In the mean time, to each their own.

As a player and DM, I got so tired of the NPC stats being incompatible with PC stats in 1e and wholly different systems and levers being pulled to try to maintain challenge...20 fanatic dervishes. According to the stat blocks, they are all 5HD monsters. But if they were really 5HD monsters, the encounter would be overwhelming. But Tracy lists the hit points for you, which are pretty much exactly the same results you'd expect if someone through 20 1d10's and recorded the hit points. By the rules, hit point totals like '1' or '2' are impossible for a 5HD monster. So in other words, those 20 5HD monsters are really just 20 1st level fighters with some boosts to attack bonus and saving throws. ...

Well, there are guidelines for NPCs, at least. The size of HD is a function of creature size, their is a standard proficiency bonus that works mostly like the one for PCs, and ability scores influance AC, attacks and checks in a straight forward way. So your dervishes could just have high Dex that when combined with scimitars would kick up their hit and dmg, together with the standard benefits to AC and saves. Though if you made this adjustment to an otherwise low level NPC, you would have to go through and re-calc the challenge rating (CR), but they tell you how.

You could of course also give them crazy dervish dance attack instead, and this is a fudge factor (though again, see the point on CR calc). The number of HD is also something of a fudge factor, you give them enough so they have enough HP to get close that needed for that CR of a creature.

Not all NPCs use MM entries. Some of them are built with classes just like PCs. I prefer the latter although I use the former for mooks.

Sure. You can build something using the shortcut approach in the DMG, or extrapolate from an existing monster or NPC, or build as an PC, or just make it up. Though again, you have to go back and calculate the CR.

And, you can use the table on page 282 of the DMG to racially modify an (otherwise human) NPC. Which bring me back to the topic of this thread. So there Aarakocra has +2 dex and wis, dive attack and talon attack, speed 20 ft, fly 50 feet, speaks Auran. No perception expertise or air elemental summoning, but still different then the final PC version.

 

[Sunseeker]

Okay so, for example, what would your PC Medusas look like?

Depending on the setting they would either be scaled humanoids or serpentine ones, hair made of snakes or snake-like tendrils, probably get +2 dex, +1 int or wis, darkvision, and a once-daily(long rest restores) paralysis frontal cone against all targets within 30ft who are facing the player will save negates. Maybe as a reaction could have a bite attack for 1d6 poison. Could probably give them some fluff features, such as a favored terrain in gardens or mazes. I dunno this is all just off the top of my head. Then pick your class and have fun.

 

[nomotog]

Depending on the setting they would either be scaled humanoids or serpentine ones, hair made of snakes or snake-like tendrils, probably get +2 dex, +1 int or wis, darkvision, and a once-daily(long rest restores) paralysis frontal cone against all targets within 30ft who are facing the player will save negates. Maybe as a reaction could have a bite attack for 1d6 poison. Could probably give them some fluff features, such as a favored terrain in gardens or mazes. I dunno this is all just off the top of my head. Then pick your class and have fun.

You gotta have the ability to turn people to stone. I mean it's the one ability they are known for.