D&D Technology

[Hussar]

Never underestimate the abilities of rice growing? Heh.

Seriously though, what is the population of Rome during the Empire? About 100 thousand IIRC. The largest city in the world around 1000 AD was Angkor Wat at about 1 million and it stands out as a very large anomoly. While I realize there are exceptions, that you have rightly outlined, let's face it, the very great majority of the population lived as subsistence farmers.

Chill only lasts for a very short period of time. As do most ice creation spells. Continual flame makes a pretty good substitute for electric lighting (actually probably superior) but, without refrigeration, it is very, very difficult to sustain large populations. Without the large populations, you simply don't need most of the technologies that we have.

Yes, large urban centers have existed, but, those large urban centers would now barely be considered cities. One million people? I live on an island only three hundred kilometers long and there are four cities over 1 million. Never mind the rest of the country.

 

[Andor]

Actually Rome had a population of about 1 million for a fair chunk of it's history. And while the vast bulk of every single society (Barring nomad) up until the invention of the tractor has been farmers, they aren't subsistence farmers, they generate a surplus that goes to feed the cities and the armies. And a golem makes a dandy tractor stand-in.

There are lots of food that store well, grains and potatos for example. Refridgeration is only needed to store meats and produce. Important for good nutriton but it's possible to survive quite a while on mostly grain with veggies as they come in season. And meat can be dried, smoked or salted.

It doesn't matter if chill metal or prestidigitation have a short duration. It's called a demonstration of principle. Can magic generate cold? Yes. Can I build a magic item that radiates cold? Yes. After that it's just reasearch and cost. A permanant anti-life shell effect is perfect for the long term storage of grains. Remember why the egyptians worshiped cats?

And if your campaign has psionics take note of this power. Perfect preservation. No limit on the amount preserved (practically speaking it'd be best to work with chest sized storage units.) You don't even need to talk your GM into a custom magic item. Just some shapers cranking out as much of this stuff as they can generate.

 

[painandgreed]

Never underestimate the abilities of rice growing? Heh.

Seriously though, what is the population of Rome during the Empire? About 100 thousand IIRC. The largest city in the world around 1000 AD was Angkor Wat at about 1 million and it stands out as a very large anomoly. While I realize there are exceptions, that you have rightly outlined, let's face it, the very great majority of the population lived as subsistence farmers.

Naw. Ancient Rome was also 1 million people a thousand years before Angkor Wat IIRC. Wheat works pretty well too. That was the reason that Rome needed all those aquaducts and why Sicily and Egypt played important roles in Rome's history because they were the breadbasket of Rome. Cut off Romes food or water and it would wither, which is how the barbarians did it finally 500 years later.

Edited to add:
Veggies can also be dried, fermented, pickled, salted, etc. Refrigeration isn't the only way to preserve meats and veggies, just the way that tastes the best.

 

[glass]

What's the difference between one bird? It has two wings, one comprised.

What's the difference between a chicken? One of its legs are both the same!


glass.

 

[glass]

And seeing is half the fun!

Or apparently, slightly more or less than half the fun, depending on which half you are seeing...


glass.

 

[glass]

I thought a headtilt was where you just tilted your head to the side a bit, not move the rest of your body.

Goran never does things by halves.


glass.

 

[Huw]

Sorry, reading your sentence reminded me of that nonsense joke. (I got what you actually meant.)

Oops :\

Must stop taking 10 on proof reading.

 

[Huw]

Another piece of technology that would keep fantasy settings firmly in the Middle Ages is a lack of refrigeration.

Which is why we used to have Ice houses.

 

[buzzard]

Are you sure about that? IIRC reducing iron from ore takes a temperature much higher, and more advanced technology, than the the furnaces and temperature needed to melt copper and tin and make bronze. After that, regulating the carbon content is not so complex.

It is reasonably easy to make wrought iron from ore. You can reduce it without melting it. You end up with a chunk of very low carbon content iron (low enough carbon content that you don't think of it as steel) with a lot of impurities in it. This has to be beaten the heck out of to remove the impurities. Regulating carbon content is only something which can be done after you are able to melt the metal. At best with wrought iron is you can diffuse carbon into the surface for local hardening. I imagine if you were patient enough you could diffuse it through the whole mass, but you would have a pretty severe concentration gradient. I am unsure of the date at which steel really first got made, though I can check a reference I have at home. I imagine I could check wikipedia, though I know the reference I have at home is correct.

One thing to keep in mind when discussing iron and steel is that in English at least the nomenclature is a bit screwy.

You have cast iron, which is carbon saturated iron alloy (~4.5% carbon). You also have wrought iron, which is pretty close to pure iron withou carbon. In between you have steel. Of course nowadays you have ultra-low carbon steel (which in a non-marketing world would probably be called wrought iron).

Regulation of carbon content in liquid iron is a relatively modern practice. The open hearth and Bessemer processes only emerged in the 19th century. These are what allowed mass scale manufacture of steel.

buzzard

 

[fusangite]

It is reasonably easy to make wrought iron from ore. You can reduce it without melting it.

Indeed. So I don't dispute the point you are making when you deploy the following arguments:

You end up with a chunk of very low carbon content iron (low enough carbon content that you don't think of it as steel) with a lot of impurities in it. This has to be beaten the heck out of to remove the impurities. Regulating carbon content is only something which can be done after you are able to melt the metal.

But in D&D, there is no such thing as carbon. Alchemical theories of how iron can be smelted are what is relevant in D&D, not the atomic theories of chemistry that came after it. Alchemy is the skill you roll on to understand these processes. D&D substances are made out of elements in a 4-element system not a 108-element system. There are no atoms or molecules in D&D. If there were, the alchemy skill couldn't be used to make or analyze manufactured substances; elementals would die for lack of a circulatory system; etc. etc. As the DMG, PHB, MM, etc. amply illustrate, the physical laws of a D&D world are not our physical laws. It is therefore silly to premise arguments about technology in D&D on the idea that our universe's physical laws are true in the worlds where its physics hold sway.