D&D 4E D&D4E: Resource Management between Encounters

[ptolemy18]

It seems like a lot of the changes in 4E involve removing the role of Vancian spellcasting... the "15-minute adventuring day" thing. (Which admittedly can get pretty ridiculous in those dungeon crawls where you wake up, go to the next room, get beaten up, camp out.)

I've heard that the new edition will have powers which can be used "per round, per encounter, or per day." I wonder to what extent the "per day" will still factor in? I realize this is all speculation, but although resource management during an encounter is obviously a big factor in the game, I hope that resource management BETWEEN the encounters is still supported. So arcane spellcasters won't drag the party down by whining "Guys, I'm out of spells for the day, let's stop." And presumably divine spellcasters won't drag the party down as much by saying "I'm out of healing, let's stop."

But stopping at a reasonable point actually feels good from a rhythm and role-playing realism perspective. A day that's longer than 15 minutes but is still a "day." What I'm wondering is... I hope D&D4E still gives the players some incentive to conserve their powers BETWEEN encounters, some mechanic that allows the party to enter encounters at less than full strength, whether beaten and bloodied and exhausted, or with reduced spells and powers, or whatever. Tense battles when you're at increasingly low hit points and spells are one of the core dramatic elements of D&D... that whole feeling where you start the day with your character all healed and ready to go, and then as the day progresses, after one fight too many, you start to think "Oh crap, maybe we have overextended ourselves! This situation is getting bad! The undead have cut off our exit from the dungeon and are breaking through the door! Mayday! Mayday!" (And yes, as a player I enjoy those last-ditch, bloodied-and-beaten encounters too. I like being in a tough game.)

Maybe this will mean that arcane spellcasters will have less Vancian "per day" powers, but divine spellcasters (healers) will still have a primarily "per day"-focused power set.

I'm not necessarily opposed to alternative rates of healing and so forth, breaking the whole "x hit points per day" paradigm... I just played a "Skull & Bones" d20 game and I really liked their system where hit points regenerate in mere minutes but where you can lose "lives" and limbs and/or be incapacitated for days if you drop below zero hit ponts. That was fun... it made each encounter its own thing, but it still allowed for the possibility of lasting incapacitation that wasn't just plain death.

So basically -- I wonder how the allocation of healing magic, and other magic and magic-like abilities, will work in D&D4E to still provide some reason for the players to stop adventuring at a certain point. Some way for encounters to start with the players at half-strength and quarter-strength and so on. (i.e. a middle point between "YAWN... I guess that's enough adventuring for today" and "Half the party is dead, let's stop.") Rather than starting every encounter with a totally predictable level of strength. Which, for me, is pretty undramatic.

(P.S. -- If this has all been discussed to death in another format, feel free to post the link instead.)

 

[theredrobedwizard]

Gleaning what hints we can from Star Wars: Saga Edition, each character will have a Second Wind which will allow them to heal once per day (more, if Feats and Talents are spent) an amount equal to either their Constitution score OR 1/3 their maximum HP, whichever is greater.

I have a feeling that some Clerical healing will give people extra Second Winds, thus forcing them to use up their own actions to heal, leaving the Cleric free to have their own fun. Course, the Cleric'll probably have some nifty healing abilities like:

At Will
Healing Surge: Whenever you score a critical hit you may spend a swift action to heal an ally within 2 squares an amount of damage equal to (Cleric Level)d8+(Charisma Modifier).

Per Encounter
Divine Inspiration: As a Move action, target a number of allies within 6 squares equal to 1+Wisdom Modifier, each of them gains an extra use of their Second Wind for the day. If the targets do not use this extra use by the end of the encounter, it is lost.

Per Day
Healing Cascade: After spending 1 minute in prayer, you may target as many allies as you wish within 6 squares. Each of them heals an amount of damage equal to (Cleric Level x Charisma Score). No one character may benefit from more than two Healing Cascades per day.

-TRRW

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

(P.S. -- If this has all been discussed to death in another format, feel free to post the link instead.)

The general issues around 15 - minute workday and Encounter Balance has been discussed (indeed to death) here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206309

But you (or at least the first answer) here seems a bit more praticially inclined and less on the pure metagamelevel.

Healing:
1) Abilities like Second Wind can only be used when "sufficiently injured". Since they normally won't bring you back to full hit points, but can bring you above this limit, you can't always heal yourself with this to full strength.

2) At Will / Per Encounter healing might not be able to bring you beyond a specific limit. The 3.5 Dragon Shaman for example has a healing Aura that can't increase your hit points beyond half.

3) There are still abilities that are supposed to be daily. We don't know what kind of abilities (if there is really a "kind" to it.)
My guess would be that spells like Break Enchantment, Geas, Scry, Teleport, Mordekainens Mansion, Remove Disease, Raise Dead, Heal might fit into the daily limit. You don't usually need them often to do your work (they don't kill/disable your enemies), and it's generally not a good idea to have them available any number of times per day (because they provide game/versimilitutde breaking abilities).
Very powerful offensive spells might also be in this category. If they are, they must be carefully balanced with the per encounter abilities, otherwise careful players will rely too much on them (leading us right back to the 15 minute work-day). Offensive spells like this might be Charm Monster/Dominate Person (with the caveat that you can charm/dominate only a very limited number of creatures, regardless how often you cast the spell). Powerful summing spells might also be in this area, as might Buffs (provided they last effectively all day - at least considerably longer than 15 minutes )

Basically, spells that aren't "bread and butter" spells for spellcasters, but are sometimes still required, fit well into the per day category of spells.

 

[Irda Ranger]

So basically -- I wonder how the allocation of healing magic, and other magic and magic-like abilities, will work in D&D4E to still provide some reason for the players to stop adventuring at a certain point. Some way for encounters to start with the players at half-strength and quarter-strength and so on. (i.e. a middle point between "YAWN... I guess that's enough adventuring for today" and "Half the party is dead, let's stop.") Rather than starting every encounter with a totally predictable level of strength. Which, for me, is pretty undramatic.

It's been said that a Wizard who has blown all of his per-day spells will still be at 80% effectiveness. I read that as "80% damage-dealing effectiveness", since I expect that most of what 3E calls "utility spells" will still be spells, so he'll probably be at 80% combat power and 10% (just Skills and equipment) non-combat power.

I expect a cleric will be the same, and that you may think 4E is "pretty undramatic." The reason I say this is because in the podcasts I've listened to the designers have been fairly hostile to the concept of "three cake-walks, followed by a life-or-death fight", which is what "four CR appropriate encounters" look like on a per-day balance basis. The designers specifically want each fight to be dramatic and "to the death"; which requires that characters be able to regenerate most (80%?) of their effectiveness between fights.

I expect that characters will be limited by some resource; just not clerical healing spells. We can't say what it is yet, at this time though. Perhaps the designers are specifically leaving that to the GM to provide an "in game" reason for stopping, such as running out of torches, or sundown bringing out the baddies the PC's aren't powerful enough to deal with yet.

 

[Stalker0]

If the 80% argument for a wizard holds true, I think the per day mentality will still be maintained, just to a much lesser extent. A party will still rest up for the epic combat, but will no longer fill the need to rest after a few regular dungeon encounters.

 

[Dragonblade]

At Will
Healing Surge: Whenever you score a critical hit you may spend a swift action to heal an ally within 2 squares an amount of damage equal to (Cleric Level)d8+(Charisma Modifier).

Per Encounter
Divine Inspiration: As a Move action, target a number of allies within 6 squares equal to 1+Wisdom Modifier, each of them gains an extra use of their Second Wind for the day. If the targets do not use this extra use by the end of the encounter, it is lost.

Per Day
Healing Cascade: After spending 1 minute in prayer, you may target as many allies as you wish within 6 squares. Each of them heals an amount of damage equal to (Cleric Level x Charisma Score). No one character may benefit from more than two Healing Cascades per day.

-TRRW

The At will ability seems ok, but Healing Cascade seems underpowered to me. In 1 minute, the party will be dead.

Per Day abilities should be significantly powerful, like once per day as a swift action, a cleric may call upon their deity. All allies within sight are healed back to maximum hitpoints.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I keep getting the feeling that with the "bloodied" condition we see, hit points might be different if you drop below this point - the upper half of the points are all luck and skill, the lower half contain actual injury which isn't as easy to "heal." The "per day" healing spells might be more effective at healing bloodied PCs than per encounter spells, and bloodied PCs will recover HP slower than non-bloodied PCs from just rest.

 

[ptolemy18]

Gleaning what hints we can from Star Wars: Saga Edition, each character will have a Second Wind which will allow them to heal once per day (more, if Feats and Talents are spent) an amount equal to either their Constitution score OR 1/3 their maximum HP, whichever is greater.

I have a feeling that some Clerical healing will give people extra Second Winds, thus forcing them to use up their own actions to heal, leaving the Cleric free to have their own fun. Course, the Cleric'll probably have some nifty healing abilities like:

At Will
Healing Surge: Whenever you score a critical hit you may spend a swift action to heal an ally within 2 squares an amount of damage equal to (Cleric Level)d8+(Charisma Modifier).

Thanks for the information! The Second Wind thing is good. Lots of good ideas on this thread in general.

I have to say this, though -- if "Healing Surge" is confirmed, I hope it is an optional power only available to certain clerics, rather than something all clerics have access to, because it is the DUMBEST way to provide healing I've ever heard of. Talk about a zero-flavor, decision which supports the idea of playing with minimum strategy... "Hmm, players don't like playing clerics because they have to stop fighting to heal their friends. But everyone likes rolling critical hits! Heck, even wizards like rolling critical hits! (NOTE: LIE) Let's make clerics heal their allies by doing critical hits upon their enemies!"

I've played clerics in 3E, and I enjoyed it, and the whole idea of playing a cleric is that you sometimes have to make a strategic choice between fighting and healing others. Heck, I've even played pseudo-pacifistic clerics for whom such a spell would make no sense. (And I've played wizards who were darn good at shooting things with crossbows when their spells ran out, but that's another story.) If there are spells or feats like "Healing Surge" I hope that they are not on all clerics' spell lists. Otherwise... dumb, dumb, DUMB, DUMB, DUMB.

(end of mini-rant... But yeah, that "Healing Surge" is highly un-flavorful and un-strategic.)

 

[ptolemy18]

I keep getting the feeling that with the "bloodied" condition we see, hit points might be different if you drop below this point - the upper half of the points are all luck and skill, the lower half contain actual injury which isn't as easy to "heal." The "per day" healing spells might be more effective at healing bloodied PCs than per encounter spells, and bloodied PCs will recover HP slower than non-bloodied PCs from just rest.

This is an excellent idea!

 

[ptolemy18]

I expect a cleric will be the same, and that you may think 4E is "pretty undramatic." The reason I say this is because in the podcasts I've listened to the designers have been fairly hostile to the concept of "three cake-walks, followed by a life-or-death fight", which is what "four CR appropriate encounters" look like on a per-day balance basis. The designers specifically want each fight to be dramatic and "to the death"; which requires that characters be able to regenerate most (80%?) of their effectiveness between fights.

Well.... I could love it or I could hate it. We'll see how it goes. In most RPGs that I've played that aren't D&D (i.e. most modern settings or sci-fi settings), damage is a big deal and it takes days to heal... but most RPGs don't have as high a percentage of combat as D&D does.

The "one big encounter per day instead of four little ones" was definitely a wise perception on the part of the designers, as it's true that this happens a lot, particularly in wilderness encounters. Although I'd say that the classic dungeon crawl is what the 4-encounters thing was built for... the archetypal "war of attrition where you are gradually weakened by one little encounter after another". Maybe they'll redefine the idea of "encounters" so that rather than being a single room, an encounter might be a complex of rooms or an entire dungeon level.

This may very well be the biggest argument between players and DMs in 4E: "The encounter is over!" "No it's not! As you wipe off your swords from the last battle, you hear something moving towards you down the dark corridor!"

Basically, I love those "fight to the death" encounters where half the party is unconscious and it looks like everyone is doomed. The "will we all die here?" moments. The "a bridge too far" moments. The "half the party is knocked out and the dwarf fighter has to carry them on his back and drag them out of the dungeon" moments. Those are my favorite moments in D&D. (Well, I do like actually SURVIVING those moments, but I like the rough play.) I assume -- or maybe I hope -- that there will still be a way to support this kind of "attrition effect" play in 4E, but I'll have to wait to see how it works out.