D&D 4E D&D4E = Totally Anime

ptolemy18

First Post
I don't mean this as an insult (although it's obviously a provocation given that there seems to be lots of D&D players who dislike anime and manga). ;) I am a huge fan of anime and manga. I would say that, in several ways, the combat system in 4E (and to a lesser extent, in 3E) makes it easier to replicate a lot of the common traits of fights in anime and manga.

In traditional old D&D (up through 3rd edition), battles were basically won by attrition. Like in a wargame -- your forces go down, your resources go down, and you die. Or you manage those resources well, and you're lucky, and you don't die. The toe injury from the beginning of the day will come back and haunt your fighter at the end of the day when he takes another toe injury which pushes him over the brink to 0 hp and kills him. (One of my friends jokingly described this as the "Slavic March to Death" model of D&D.) Furthermore, there is a great emphasis on choosing your resources wisely in advance of the encounters, and conserving those resources. Spellcasters have to choose what spells they memorize for the day. You have to have the right stuff -- if you're fighting a wraith and you don't have a magic weapon, or if you're fighting green slime and you don't have fire, you better run. The game is organized around attrition (including attrition of characters -- characters are assumed to die in a fairly cavalier fashion in older editions), careful management of resources (such as spells -- the major gripe of every D&D newbie who ever played a wizard and found out they had to cherish their per-day spells like they were precious gems), and long-term strategy.

On the other hand, in D&D4e, it's more about tactical choices in individual combat encounters. Of course there are still "per day" powers, but they have been reduced in impact. And of course there are still monsters which are more vulnerable to certain attacks or weapons than others, but the necessity of having prepared in advance and brought "just the right thing for the encounter" is (from what I've heard) reduced. Instead, what's the model for 4e combat? Everyone's on their feet as much of the time as possible, and everyone can do effective stuff as often as possible! ;) Wizards no longer have to view their "wizardly" powers as a carefully guarded commodity. Hit points are no longer quite as zealously guarded either, since now everyone can "second wind" and get back their hit points to a certain extent. And there is a much greater emphasis on interplay of powers, and to a certain extent, on teamwork -- "character roles" and classes like the warlord and all, although Wizards tells us that certain classes are still "selfish."

And what does this make me think of? Anime and manga with lots of teamwork-oriented fight scenes, like Naruto, Zatch Bell, Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, etc.! ;) Just think about it -- characters who hardly ever die, although they are frequently on the BRINK of death and then manage to pull themselves back. The whole concept of "second wind" which can be roleplayed as a dramatic "Arggh... I must keep fighting! Must protect my friends!" and the idea that certain classes and abilities can grant additional "second winds" via inspiring deeds rather than literal physical concepts like healing. A greater emphasis on martial characters, in keeping with the general Asian-pop-culture-influenced emphasis on super martial artists and swordfighters, as opposed to the traditional Vancian/Tolkien D&D idea that spellcasters are the "big guns" and everyone else is, frankly, sort of the cannon fodder. And of course the increased number of powers which are designed to work in conjunction with other characters' powers and even react to the actions of the enemies.

When I think of the model for D&D4e combat, I instantly think of the super-melodramatic, martial style of battle-oriented anime and manga. I'm sure this isn't the only thing which influenced the designers -- frankly I think it's probably part of a general cultural shift over the last 40 years away from the "wargaming" model and towards a more cinematic model -- but I'd be surprised if it wasn't an element. Anyway, although I like the old style of attrition-based, resource-managing D&D, I think that this style of D&D4e, unless I'm totally misinterpreting it, bodes well for the popularity of the new game.
 

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Wow, I expected to read another anti-4e rant here, just like so many others we've seen in the last few weeks. Instead, I read a coherent, well thought-out opinion piece. Seeing as I am not well versed in Anime/Manga, I'll have to recuse myself from commenting on the actual case at hand, but the argument was very persuasive. Thanks for not ranting.
 

I wouldn't mind seeing an anime themed D&D version using the new rules. Might be a good entry for a new company or one of the current manufacturers under the GSL. They did a d20 version of BESM, maybe they will update it to 4e making a setting as I doubt WotC would allow them to do like before.
 

You're right that 4e has things in common with a certain variety of anime - but that's not the only place those things are found. I mean, I also think about battle-oriented anime when I read about 4e combat, but that's because I like battle-oriented anime. I've been thinking of RPG combats in those terms for years. But someone who's not into anime might look at 4e and think it resembles fantasy novels like Steven Brust's (his "Dragaera" series features abundant, reliable magic, extremely skilled swordsmen and rogue-types, and high-action combat, and was published starting in 1983), or action movies, or something else.

So while saying that "4e is like action anime" is true, it's kind of an incomplete truth. 4e is one of many things that are like each other, and they aren't all Asian or popular with teenagers.
 

Wait, it can't be like anime... D&D 4e is a collectible video game where you maneuver your CDs on a board while using wargame attrition charts and tracking dozens of save variables on your laptop.

I am pretty firmly convinced that 4e will allow my group to tell better stories (than 3.x)... and roleplay more while they do it. Only three games under the belt so far, but it's looking really promising.
 
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As long as the fundamental assumptions of D&D absolutely guarantee that a guy with no armor and a katana is complete crap, it will not be anime.
 

ptolemy18 said:
Anime and manga with lots of teamwork-oriented fight scenes, like... Dragon Ball Z...! ;)

I'm going to have to check your geek credentials after a comment like that! Dragonball Z teamwork consisted "let me fight him one on one!" "okay!" (or possibly of Krillin exploding to buff Goku).
 

I thought that Exalted was the anime game. For the record, though, I've been working on a 4E campaign with Exalted being the inspiration. Surprisingly, it's not nearly as difficult as one would think. It only took about 2 pages of Exalted-specific rules that will need to be cleaned up. Is that good or bad?
 

ptolemy18 said:
...In traditional old D&D (up through 3rd edition), battles were basically won by attrition. Like in a wargame -- your forces go down, your resources go down, and you die. Or you manage those resources well, and you're lucky, and you don't die....Spellcasters have to choose what spells they memorize for the day. You have to have the right stuff -- if you're fighting a wraith and you don't have a magic weapon, or if you're fighting green slime and you don't have fire, you better run...On the other hand, in D&D4e, it's more about tactical choices in individual combat encounters. Of course there are still "per day" powers, but they have been reduced in impact. And of course there are still monsters which are more vulnerable to certain attacks or weapons than others, but the necessity of having prepared in advance and brought "just the right thing for the encounter" is (from what I've heard) reduced. Instead, what's the model for 4e combat? Everyone's on their feet as much of the time as possible, and everyone can do effective stuff as often as possible! ;) Wizards no longer have to view their "wizardly" powers as a carefully guarded commodity. Hit points are no longer quite as zealously guarded either, since now everyone can "second wind" and get back their hit points to a certain extent.

Very good post, and some very good points. I would disagree with a few, or make some comments.

"In traditional old D&D (up through 3rd edition), battles were basically won by attrition."

Hmmm.. more so than in 4e, but not overall. At early levels, each hit could take you down. You had almost no resources to converse, so not much impact of attrition.
In the sweet spot, attrition had its biggest effect. Spells were useful but limited in number.
At higher levels, there was an overabundance of healing capability, and you started each encounter fully healed. Wands and scrolls kept you from running out of stuff, and the ultimate answer to attrition... go ahead and sleep.

"Like in a wargame -- your forces go down, your resources go down, and you die. Or you manage those resources well, and you're lucky, and you don't die...."

Gah, what a nihilistic view :p Sounds like a rough DM. For us it was 'manage well or get lucky, or you're getting to wish you could die'


"Spellcasters have to choose what spells they memorize for the day. You have to have the right stuff -- if you're fighting a wraith and you don't have a magic weapon, or if you're fighting green slime and you don't have fire, you better run..."

I'll hold off final judgement til I see the 4e PHB, but this in fact one thing I expect to miss quite a bit - I really liked that aspect of playing a wizard.

From what I've seen of 4e, I think there will still be a fair amount of resource management, both within battles and within the day. With one second wind and the leader having several people to take care of, those healing surges never seem to be common enough, *and* when the monsters are smacking you for 33% of your hit points, taking a round to get back 25% is definitely turning towards an attrition-based battle.

I think players who are carefully and take resource management seriously, and enjoy that aspect of the game, will very much guard their daily powers and will enjoy the tough choice of when to use the daily and when to hold back.

While I enjoyed choosing the right spells as a wizard, it was frustrating to basically sit on the sidelines when your choices ended up being not that great due to unforeseen circumstances.

In some ways, 4e may be the best of both worlds - I think we'll get the fun 'must get up and help Jim!' nearly superhero actions people are calling anime, but we'll also have resource management that will be hugely impacted by your tactical skill.

"Instead, what's the model for 4e combat? Everyone's on their feet as much of the time as possible, and everyone can do effective stuff as often as possible! ;) ... Hit points are no longer quite as zealously guarded either, since now everyone can "second wind" and get back their hit points to a certain extent."

Have you played at all with 4e rules? (that's not being snarky, I'm curious) In the several sessions I've played in or run, characters were dropping like flies frequently. The fun thing is that there weren't staying down, adding a lot to the feeling of brink-of-death while reducing the chance of killing a well loved character quite significantly. Along those lines, all the characters I've seen were very much watching their hit points, not at all cavalier about them just because a healing surge might come up. In practice at these very early levels, I'm seeing almost identical fall down and healing rates as third level characters, since 1d8+1/lvl for a cure light is fairly close to 25% of health and also takes a standard action.

(What does seem anime to me, and not in a good way, is pushing foes around not just a square or two but the rogue positioning strike-artful dodger synergy)

Thanks for the sharing the thoughts in your post.
 

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