D&D's Influences

[Bullgrit]

I think the issue people take with Tolkien is the stance some seem to have that Tolkien was THE influence on D&D, rather than an influence on D&D.

This is what I think. It's like whenever there's a list of influences on D&D, some folks want to list Tolkien first, in bold font, with a space elevating it a step above the others on the list.

I've never seen Howard, Vance, Anderson, or Leiber fans pointing out their influence on D&D, even though, for instance, a direct mechanical influence can be seen with the vancian magic system.

Why do some Tolkien fans have the need to constantly claim an/the influence on D&D, while fans of the other authors rarely make such a claim?

Bullgrit

 

[coyote6]

Maybe because others (including Gygax, in Dragon) tried to disavow influence of Tolkien? (Edit: as a reaction; I can see how a fan of X seeing a statement "X had nothing to do with this!" as being somewhat negative, and thus could feel inclined to try to refute that.)

I don't know. (I'm not a "fan" of Tolkien, I don't think; I like LotR well enough, but I don't reread it regularly, nor have I read anything but LotR & The Hobbit, etc. Strictly casual, man. )

 

[Sonny]

I would put forth that it wasn't Tolkien, Howard, Leiber, Vance, Moorcock, or any other author often referenced, that really had the biggest influence on D&D as much as the LOVE of fantasy, history, mythology, and adventure that Gygax and Anderson shared that really made D&D what it was.

Anyone can take the creations of the authors above and throw them together into one big melting pot. It doesn't mean you'll get D&D.

 

[Storm Raven]

Perhaps, but that's as much Gandalf pulling the strings and pointing the dwarves at a hobbit worthy for other qualities than actually being a competent burglar. They still hired one one to fill a needed role - that of the traditional thief in AD&D.

Just to nitpick though, the D&D thief is, mechanically, nothing like Bilbo. The original D&D thief is sort of an amalgam of Cudgel the Clever and the Grey Mouser.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

I think Tolkien certainly had an influence on D&D, as did many other fantasy authors, as well as other sources. I think that Tolkien's influence on D&D becomes a talking point because of early rebuttals by Gygax (and legal issues, IIRC—FWIW, I believe there has been mention/discussion of the Tolkien estate suing over use of IP, and thus why halflings are halflings instead of hobbits, treants aren't ents, balors aren't balrogs, etc.).

The elements are present there, but changed just enough to legally be different (sort of like Adidus shoes or Levvy Jeans). The big thing, for me at least, is the use of mithral in D&D and orcs. The original mithril in Tolkien's works is memorable, and it sees use in other settings with a vowel change.

(For those who don't know, mithril, like balrog, both mean something in Tolkien's created languages [grey brilliance and powerful demon respectively, IIRC].)

Orcs can be linked back to sources earlier than Tolkien's, but it is the goblin-like orc of Tolkien's works that serves as the wellspring for the orcs or today.

The style of the initial demihumans (to use the AD&D terms) was very Tolkienesque, as well. The halfling subraces of Stout, Hairfoots, and Tallfellow echoed Tolkien's Stoor, Harfoot, and Fallohide hobbit stock. The core "high" elves were much like Elrond's folk, with the "grey" elves mirroring Galadriel's Galadrim, and the "wood" elves mirroring the elves of Mirkwood. The hill and mountain dwarves mirror Dain's dwarves from the Iron Hills and Thorin's 13 from the Lonely Mountain.

However, the influences of other authors on the game are just as significant, if not moreso. Vancian magic is a fine example, as are several others mentioned in previous posts. However, the prominence of these influences had faded (to a degree) with each reworking of the game.

 

[Dire Bare]

I can't speak for anyone else, but, my personal animosity, if it can be called that, for Tolkien is the pedastal he gets put up on by some fans. Invoking Tolkien in many cases is the same as Godwinning a thread. You can use him to shore up any arguement by picking and choosing what elements you like from the books, and, no one can counter the argument because then you just "hate Tolkein" which is akin to kicking puppies in the eyes of some fantasy fans.

I may be hanging out in the wrong places, but I've never seen this "putting Tolkien on a pedestal" behavior in conjunction with D&D.

I have seen it when comparing the movies to the books, but I see that type of behavior anytime a book is compared to it's movie adaptation, regardless of author.

Edit: Also, even if over-sensitive Tolkien fans were a huge problem . . . why should that result in animosity to the books themselves? They stand on their own, fan pedestals or not!

 

[Dire Bare]

I think too many folks are splitting hairs when trying to diminish the influence of Tolkien on D&D. Sure, Bilbo wasn't a good mechanical example of the classic D&D thief, but . . . so what? He's a great example of the halfling thief archetype found in D&D, the moral rogue.

I like the point of a poster above (should've quoted you, sorry) who separated out story influences from mechanical ones (although, again, I think you can go too far with that).

Tolkien has an undeniably HUGE influence on the story of D&D from Day 1 . . . not the only influence of course, and maybe not even the greatest, but HUGE nonetheless! It should also be pointed out that even if the works of Vance, Herbert and others had a larger impact on D&D's story . . . out of all those authors whose influence is the most easily seen by the average fantasy fan? Tolkien.

D&D was hot on the heels of the Tolkien revival in the late sixties and early seventies, and a lot of fantasy fans had Tolkien foremost on their minds . . . so it shouldn't be too surprising to see Tolkien's influence and the recognition of that influence amongst fans.

I had no clue what "Vancian Magic" was until many years after I started playing D&D . . . it was there, but I didn't recognize it . . . but I immediately saw the parallels between the D&D races and subraces and Tolkien's races. And that first impression sticks.

To acknowledge Tolkien's influence on our favorite game doesn't diminish the important influences from other literary and mythic sources. But to deny that influence is, well, just silly.