D&D's Influences

[mmadsen]

But the original D&D rules suggest the game is really about robbing the sh*t out of things, which isn't very Tolkienesque, when you think about it.

The hero of The Hobbit is a thief...

 

[FireLance]

The hero of The Hobbit is a thief...

I think you've made the mistake, common to D&D players of all editions, of confusing what other people call the character with the character's actual class.

In any case, I think he was technically referred to as a "burglar".

 

[coyote6]

I think you've made the mistake, common to D&D players of all editions, of confusing what other people call the character with the character's actual class.

In any case, I think he was technically referred to as a "burglar".

Of the subclass "reluctant", I believe.

 

[Jack7]

Of the subclass "reluctant", I believe.

And what he really helped do was kill a dragon and stop a war, then he was rewarded for his efforts, he didn't have to steal for his gain.

Unless you count Gollum, and even then he merely stole from a murderer in order to escape being murdered. He wasn't much of a classical fantasy thief at all. Certainly no Conan.

 

[billd91]

And what he really helped do was kill a dragon and stop a war, then he was rewarded for his efforts, he didn't have to steal for his gain.

Unless you count Gollum, and even then he merely stole from a murderer in order to escape being murdered. He wasn't much of a classical fantasy thief at all. Certainly no Conan.

Perhaps, but that's as much Gandalf pulling the strings and pointing the dwarves at a hobbit worthy for other qualities than actually being a competent burglar. They still hired one one to fill a needed role - that of the traditional thief in AD&D.

Now, I might agree that LotR didn't have a huge influence on the basic game mechanics nor the rewards built into the system to foster improvement. That's much more swords and sorcery and, I suspect, reflects Gygax's preferences in fantasy literature. That said, he certainly knew which side his bread was buttered on and put in a heaping helping of LotR influence including monsters, races, multi-racial and diverse parties of adventurers, rangers, and magic items like elven cloaks.

 

[rkwoodard]

maybe this is the best way

Would it be fair to say:

Characters (and in the case of AD&D the PHB) was heavily influenced

The Game Play (and in the case of AD&D the DMG) was not so much.

Yes, players could recreate a lot (But not all) of the class/race stuff. But the DM generally ran a completely different style than LOTR.

Which plays out if you think that Gary included stuff his players wanted (more LOTR) but ran the stuff he was inspired by (more S&S)

Just thinking out loud.

RK.

 

[rogueattorney]

I think the issue people take with Tolkien is the stance some seem to have that Tolkien was THE influence on D&D, rather than an influence on D&D.

Personally, I think The Hobbit is about as "D&D" as fantasy stories get. It even has the ebb and flow of a D&D game... travel...fight...(loot?)...rest...repeat. The Lord of the Rings is much less D&D in feel. And I believe Gygax when he said that he liked the Hobbit but didn't like LotR much. It fits in with the other works on his list.

I think some of the animosity to Tolkien comes from the fact that Tolkien is the Elvis of fantasy. He wasn't the first, he wasn't the best, he didn't put out all that many great works, but he's certainly the most popular. (I guess under this analogy that makes the Silmarillion the equivalent to the NBC comeback special.) I think some fantasy aficionados simply get tired of Tolkien. It's not like he's got a vast, wide-ranging bibliography you can delve into over and over again. The downplaying of Tolkien and the upraising of other authors is much like old-time rock n' roll enthusiasts who say, "Yeah, Elvis is good, but have you checked out Johnny Burnette or Screamin' Jay Hawkins or Bo Diddley?"

 

[Hussar]

I think some of the animosity to Tolkien comes from the fact that Tolkien is the Elvis of fantasy.

I can't speak for anyone else, but, my personal animosity, if it can be called that, for Tolkien is the pedastal he gets put up on by some fans. Invoking Tolkien in many cases is the same as Godwinning a thread. You can use him to shore up any arguement by picking and choosing what elements you like from the books, and, no one can counter the argument because then you just "hate Tolkein" which is akin to kicking puppies in the eyes of some fantasy fans.

 

[Mallus]

More form than function was borrowed from sources like Tolkien, generally speaking, as far as the overall game structure is concerned.

That's a good way to put it. Much of the form was unarguably nicked from Tolkien, but the function, the actual shape of play, was more swords and sorcery lit + wargame.

Personally, I'm more interested in how people used the rules than the actual content of/influences on the rules themselves. There's always been this fascinating tension between the uses implied by a given edition of D&D and what some segments of the player base used it for.

 

[Jack7]

Perhaps, but that's as much Gandalf pulling the strings and pointing the dwarves at a hobbit worthy for other qualities than actually being a competent burglar. They still hired one one to fill a needed role - that of the traditional thief in AD&D.

I'm not saying LOTR didn't have an influence on the game. It had a large one. But not on the way the game played so much, because, well, take Bilbo for example. I think you're right, Gandalf did choose Bilbo because he was exactly what was needed for the mission. But not because he was a good thief (in the D&D sense), but because he was far more crafty, wise, and moral than even many of the people around him. He kept the dwarves honest, dissuaded the continuation of the war, tried to be fair to everyone, and tried his best to get everyone to share the wealth of the horde, not fight over it. He was in short the most moral man in the entire book, short of Gandalf (more of an observer in the Hobbit), and I think this is what Gandalf wanted and expected of Bilbo, at least in part. Not just a clever burglar and adventurer and explorer, but a real moral influence. Bilbo was not the typical fantasy thief idea. In that I think we likely agree.

Now early on I remember many people, myself included, trying to play the "moral thief" as taken from Tolkien. Take (or retake actually) only from the evil, try to be fair to your own party members, try and do what is best for everyone if possible. The opposite of this ideal of the "moral and honorable thief," or what could really be called the rogue with the good heart in another respect (to use a modern example, Burn Notice - I personally have always liked the rogue who appears as one thing but is in truth another, because in truth he is really a sort of undercover Dick playing a bad man, but twisting things in another direction), is the assassin. But eventually I noticed that the thief, for the most part, and for most players I associated with, became more and more, over time, the Conan type, or even the minor assassin-like character. A cunning, back-stabbing, footpadding, guile-filled manipulator and schemer, even against this own party. I personally am sorry that happened, that the moral thief ideal died out and left only the amoral and immoral ones. But that's the way the game developed for the most part.

But I'm not saying the game was uninfluenced by Tolkien, it was heavily. But over time it became far less so, especially regarding the moral basis of certain characters that might be loosely considered Tolkienish. Though Bilbo was never the typical fantasy ideal of the thief in the first place. That was my point. In many ways he was the obverse, or even the anti-Thief thief. I think Tolikien did that on purpose just as he made Gandalf both a prototypical Middle Earth Wizard, and something very different from the prototypical fantasy Wizard in many other respects.

Characters (and in the case of AD&D the PHB) was heavily influenced

The Game Play (and in the case of AD&D the DMG) was not so much.

I think those are good, general points.