D&D General D&D's Utter Dominance Is Good or Bad Because...

[Reynard]

Just long enough until either the movie verse,

Oops.

live service video game,

Oops

or monthly loot box subscription get online.

Maybe the 3D VTT?

 

[DEFCON 1]

I am not meaning big updates. I mean anything. From tweaks to minor alterations or additionsto major overhauls.

Some of the fandom wants little tweaks. Some of the fandom wants big sweeping changes. Some of of the fandom wants something in between. Most of the community would like some parts of 5e altered, even if it's small. The minority is 100.0% satisfied with their D&D.

The main uniting force of the people that want change is their uneasiness in spending money for change. WOTC has to run on hype, nostalgia, or shotgunning hooks into books to snag customers.

If electronic files were not a thing, most 3PPs would go broke as they would struggle to sell niche softcovers and hardcovers.

I still disagree that most people do not want or are unwilling to pay for updates. People bought Tasha's, which included options to replace bits in the 5E14 book people did not like. And people are going to buy the 5E24 books too. Yes, we know there are a bunch of people here on the boards that have said they aren't going to do so... but we are a selected few and not representative of the gaming populace at large.

But hey, it doesn't matter what either of us think... the proof will be in the pudding soon enough.

 

[Minigiant]

I still disagree that most people do not want or are unwilling to pay for updates. People bought Tasha's, which included options to replace bits in the 5E14 book people did not like. And people are going to buy the 5E24 books too. Yes, we know there are a bunch of people here on the boards that have said they aren't going to do so... but we are a selected few and not representative of the gaming populace at large.

But hey, it doesn't matter what either of us think... the proof will be in the pudding soon enough.

I already explained that.

TCOE and the 2024 books (will) bring(s) a multitude of desired changes. That's my point.
The Fandom is not anti-change. The Fandom isn't ultra conservative. The Fandom only pays when they get great good value for their buck.
That's is why the fandom whined so hard about Spelljammer. The community didn't think they got enough bag for their buck.

Smaller companies can't afford to go hard on a change heavy hardcover without kickstarting first.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They are not flooding the market with 5E and I never said they were. Quite the opposite actually, previous editions did. Do you remember 4E's book-a-month club? Pepperidge Farm does, and so do I. Same with 3E and much of the TSR era.

I bought most of all of that, so yeah, I remember. If they had made more stuff for 5e before the design shift, they would have gotten more money from me.

 

[Hussar]

Is that "the fandom" or a vocal but small subset of fans? How many of the 30 million D&D players respond to the playtest surveys? Why would WotC cater everything to that small group, as opposed to some other small group?

Appealing to this "silent majority" does nothing. You do understand how polling works right? You ask a bunch of people and then look at the trends in the answers. There isn't this great conspiracy where only a tiny cabal is dominating all the conversation.

When you poll thousands of fans, which we know they do, and get a 70% or better acceptance on something, they can be pretty sure that that thing is what the fandom wants. How do we know this? because so far, WotC has yet to produce a dud in 5e. Some of the books might sell better than others, but, none of them have been a failure.

 

[Hussar]

That's is why the fandom whined so hard about Spelljammer. The community didn't think they got enough bag for their buck.

But, despite the whining, Spelljammer is one of hte most successful WotC books. It was a massive hit. Sold tens of thousands of copies. Sold as well or better than virtually any other book. It certainly sold FAR better than the original version did. By miles. So, despite the complaints on the boards, it's not turning into a loss of sales.

I disagree. The fandom for D&D is extremely conservative. They want D&D to be largely unchanging. They don't want new. They want D&D to stay right where it is. And they've repeatedly made that perfectly clear.

 

[Minigiant]

But, despite the whining, Spelljammer is one of hte most successful WotC books. It was a massive hit. Sold tens of thousands of copies. Sold as well or better than virtually any other book. It certainly sold FAR better than the original version did. By miles. So, despite the complaints on the boards, it's not turning into a loss of sales.

I disagree. The fandom for D&D is extremely conservative. They want D&D to be largely unchanging. They don't want new. They want D&D to stay right where it is. And they've repeatedly made that perfectly clear.

Spelljammer sold well because people though stuff would be in it that wasn't.
THAT was the complaint. The community wanted new mechanical content, expected new content, got a little. felt duped., and openly shouted.
The community wants new mechanics. They don't want to lose old content they already bought and have to buy it again.

This is why WOTC, Paizo, and every major game publisher remakes their stuff but wont shut up about the old books working with the new books.

The D&D community doesn't want D&D to be unchanging. They want it to be backwards compatible. This is the hell for small publishers.

 

[MerricB]

But, despite the whining, Spelljammer is one of hte most successful WotC books. It was a massive hit. Sold tens of thousands of copies. Sold as well or better than virtually any other book.

I'm sorry, what?

"Sold as well or better than any other book"? Care to back that up with actual figures?

It didn't do poorly, but looking at the data Alphastream posted about bookscan data...

Xanathar's Guide to Everything - 521K sales
Tasha's Cauldron of Everything - 347K sales
Volo's Guide to Monsters - 341K sales
Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide - 162K sales
Eberron: Rising form the Last War - 142K sales
Curse of Strahd - 142K sales
Dragon Heist - 120K sales
Tyranny of Dragons - 110K sales
Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft - 101K sales
Spelljammer (5E) - 84K sales (partial, not including several sources).
Spelljammer (2E) - 82K sales (Ben Riggs)
Journeys through the Radiant Citadel - 25K sales
Call of the Netherdeep: 21K sales

All of those numbers are unreliable, and even two Bookscan numbers may be omitting a LOT of data, but I think they're the only thing we have to go on for how Spelljammer did. It did okay, but I wouldn't be brave enough to put it as top tier.

 

[Hussar]

All of those numbers are unreliable, and even two Bookscan numbers may be omitting a LOT of data, but I think they're the only thing we have to go on for how Spelljammer did. It did okay, but I wouldn't be brave enough to put it as top tier.

Fair enough. I do remember that Spelljammer was doing very well on Amazon for a long time, just hanging about behind the core 3 for several months. But, I certainly don't have hard numbers to back that up.

My point is, Spelljammer was hardly a flop. It sold and sold pretty darn well by most metrics. People complaining about the lack of content didn't seem to hurt sales.

The fandom does not want new stuff. They want the same old, same old. What evidence is there that there is this huge demand for innovation in D&D?

 

[Minigiant]

What evidence is there that there is this huge demand for innovation in D&D?

The 2023 playtest.

You are only looking at the end point and not looking at the process.

1. WOTC proposed new ideas.
2. Community supports some of the new ideas
3. 3PPs Integrate new ideas
4. Community realizes that due to new ideas, everything PreTashas that isn't reprinted can't work with new ideas
5. Community demands backwards compatibility
6. New ideas not automatically backwards compatible cancels.

You only are looking at Part 6.

This is why many people think the 2024 books are coming out so late. WOTC was running on the new ideas only for the community to demand complete backwards compatibility of subclasses and classes at the last minute.

This is a bad part of D&D's dominance. You only have Kobold Press there to convert 2014 stuff to the liked parts of Early UA paradigm.