d20 bubble bust?- High Prices, too many books

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ever thought about offering discounts directly to consumers? Just a thought, but if companies and people like Wulf are stuck with backlist, then why not come to places like EnWorld and offer discounts directly to consumers.

The publisher has to weigh the advantages of a trickle of direct sales against the certainty that he will piss off the retailers, particularly if he offers his product at a discount. It's not worth it to break the retailer>distributor>publisher chain.

If you have reached the point where you are deciding between direct sales to customers and keeping your retailers happy, you're probably past the point where you can afford to stay in business.


Wulf

 

[Doctor Futurity]

Pssstttt. Kamikaze Midget... Bastion who?


yeah, i know who they are... but most people don't. even after their supposed success .....

And for that matter, I'm waiting to buy WOTC's edition rather than Bastion's or any other company's book on Winter gaming, simply because it will be perceived as more "official" by my D&D group and more accepted without niggling technicalities over poorly playtested rules (not to imply that WOTC is perfectly playtested, mind you). It's not that I want to snub a good 3rd party developer over WOTC; but I have to draw a line, and an "official" product must, by definition, get my support over alternates in a cut-throat world with too many supplements on the same subjects. Same goes for the Complete series; they remain the only prestige class compilations I allow as a DM, with very few exceptions. And truth be told, most of my experiences with 3rd party support have involved big question marks about rules gaffs, errata, poorly conceived and overpowered feats/classes/spells/etc. By and large official books seem to at least nod to balance issues better.

I try to keep up with Scarred Lands, Ravenloft, Midnight, Arcana Unearthed, an occasional Green Ronin book, and Conan. That pretty much caps my PnP budget (I've got PC and console needs too, ya know!) I've got a nice job, I do well enough to afford what I want.....and even then I couldn't possibly keep up with the volume of new product out there simply due to time constraints; for example, I will probably not finish reading my Scarred Lands collection before it's time to upgrade to 4th edition (which I assume won't be for another 6-8 years at least, PLEASE!). Maybe one of the problems with the flood of the market is that these products aren't just competing for our dollar, but our time. And I think it is safe to say that there's an inverse relationship here; the more money you have to spend on such stuff, the less ime you have to enjoy it, and the reverse being true as well (for example, in college I made a nominal amount through part time work, and could only afford about $75 a month on games, but I ran 2-3 4+ hour sessions every week, in multiple systems and campaigns. Now, gainfully employed, I have an entertainment budget of about $500 a month, but can manage one 3-4 hour session on Tuesday nights, and an occasional all-day session once every couple of Sundays).
And that, folks, is my 2 cents!

 

[dead]

You're looking at the past with rose-colored glasses.

Or through the eyes of (the) dead

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm waiting to buy WOTC's edition simply because it will be perceived as more "official" by my D&D group. It's not that I want to snub a good 3rd party developer over WOTC; but I have to draw a line, and an "official" product must, by definition, get my support over alternates in a cut-throat world with too many supplements on the same subjects. Same goes for the Complete series; they remain the only prestige class compilations I allow as a DM, with very few exceptions. And truth be told, most of my experiences with 3rd party support have involved big question marks about rules gaffs, errata, poorly conceived and overpowered feats/classes/spells/etc. By and large official books seem to at least nod to balance issues better.

This attitude is extremely prevalent, and is definitely a contributing factor to poor 3rd party sales.

I empathize with this approach (I have used it myself, until I realized I was missing out on some really good 3rd party stuff), but on the other hand, when I DM, I know exactly where to draw the line: with me.

It's official if I say it's official.

Anything else is abdicating your responsibility as the DM. "Well, I don't want players asking me all the time if they can use this rule or that rule..."

Is it really so much harder to say, "You can use only WOTC products, so don't ask about anything else," as it is to say, "You can use only products that I have put on this list, so don't ask about anything else."

I mean, do you play only WOTC adventures, because they are the only official adventures? Do you have the confidence to create your own adventures? I'd wager to say that adventures are some of the least playtested products out there, and that's really where the rubber hits the road.


Wulf

 

[Ghostwind]

And for that matter, I'm waiting to buy WOTC's edition rather than Bastion's or any other company's book on Winter gaming, simply because it will be perceived as more "official" by my D&D group and more accepted without niggling technicalities over poorly playtested rules (not to imply that WOTC is perfectly playtested, mind you). It's not that I want to snub a good 3rd party developer over WOTC; but I have to draw a line, and an "official" product must, by definition, get my support over alternates in a cut-throat world with too many supplements on the same subjects. Same goes for the Complete series; they remain the only prestige class compilations I allow as a DM, with very few exceptions.

Whenever a third party publisher hears this, he bangs his head against something very hard. This is one of the mindsets that is difficult to overcome and much of it is based upon inaccurate beliefs, wrong information and/or outdated experiences. (See the article I wrote here about the myths of "official only".) There are many publishers that I would put up against Wotc any day and 9 out of 10 times Wotc will lose. There is too much quality stuff out there that deserves being looked it and used. Want a short list? How about (in no particular order):

1. Grim Tales - Bad Axe
2. Lords of the Night: Vampires - Bottled Imp
3. Book of the Righteous - Green Ronin
4. From Stone to Steel - MonkeyGod Enterprises
5. Midnight - Fantasy Flight Games
6. Torn Asunder: Critical Hits - Bastion Press (and not just because I wrote it)
7. Oathbound: Domains of the Forge - Bastion Press
8. Spycraft - AEG
9. Mutants and Masterminds - Green Ronin
10. Nyambe - Atlas Games

Just look at the reviews on EN World and see what they say about these products (yes, Grim Tales is new but I expect it will be seeing a lot of 5's). My point is that there are many products that you (or any other gamer for that matter) are shorting yourself and your game with the 'official only' stance.

 

[Psion]

You're looking at the past with rose-colored glasses. It was never easier.

Indeed. You (dead) ask us to provide a list of successful games, and then after the fact, you revise your criteria to brush off the evidence, or prophecy the certainty that they will be gone any day now. (And beleive me, in some cases, I think little enough of some of those games that I wish you were right.)

To quote Willy Wonka, "Good Day Sir."

Anyway, everybody needs to read Monte's new Line of Sight, as he's talking about the whole bubble thing.

Very interesting. I think he is very astute to stand against the popular conception that small publishers (or more derogatorily, Joe Fanboys, I guess) are the problem. I can think of a load of small publishers who have published things I would have never got from larger, more established publishers.

But IMO, some of those need to learn a little perspective or even the better ones of those will vanish. BID.

Back to the article, while it comes across that while Monte is being diplomatic, he is still complaining about shovelware from other big publishers, because he says the start-up publishers aren't the problem, but the low-quality crap out there is. And he does name a few companies who he thinks are worth the while with recent product, a list which for the most part I agree with.

While I can see his point, I do think some companies who have put out less-than-stellar material are turning over a new leaf, or at least trying to.

Yet some companies, large and small, will never admit that their product is in any way less than perfect, or at a mismatch with customer expectations.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Whenever a third party publisher hears this, he bangs his head against something very hard. This is one of the mindsets that is difficult to overcome and much of it is based upon inaccurate beliefs, wrong information and/or outdated experiences...There are many publishers that I would put up against Wotc any day and 9 out of 10 times Wotc will lose...My point is that there are many products that you (or any other gamer for that matter) are shorting yourself and your game with the 'official only' stance.

Before 3.5, my response would have been that WOTC's material was much more likely to be balanced (or at least, not incredibly unbalanced), hence they could be trusted more. The amount of unbalanced material published the first year or two following 3.0 was simply unbelievable, and all non-WOTC companies are still stuck with that image. It's going to take a long time to erase those experiences, but a few exceptional products are helping, and I think it's not as bad as it used to be.

Conversely, since 3.5 came out I've revised my expectations regarding WOTC products - downward. While production values are still very slick, I'm seeing less and less actual gameplay value in what they're producing. The fact that so much of it is retread doesn't help. But watching people find holes in the XPH within days of its release make me wonder if anyone playtests their materal anymore. As always, buyer beware - no matter who the publisher is.

 

[dead]

To quote Willy Wonka, "Good Day Sir."

I think I've been rightfully reprimanded. I'll put my trust in you that the non-d20 gaming industry is as healthy, if not healthier, than ever.

From where I come from, though, only about 10% of RPGs in my hobby shop are non-d20. I'll try a different hobby shop I guess.

Forgive me for my wild assertions.

Can Willy Wonka let me stay?

 

[buzz]

From where I come from, though, only about 10% of RPGs in my hobby shop are non-d20. I'll try a different hobby shop I guess.

That's just it; that was pretty much the situation for the average FLGS long before d20. D&D is just that freaking' huge.

 

[MerricB]

How big is your local community?

That has a lot to do with how many non-D&D RPGs your FLGS can stock. I know that people play other games than D&D 3.5E in Ballarat, but not in such numbers as to be worth my FLGS keeping them in stock. They get in one or two copies of (say) each GURPS product and it sells, but anything over that doesn't sell: they've saturated the available market.

And then the GURPS players move to another game, and no new GURPS products sell either!

OTOH, D&D keeps on selling.

Cheers!