D20 Dark Sun

[Staffan]

Could you explain ? I read only the first four or five DS supplements and the revised campaign setting, so I don't actually understand what you mean and how it impacts the conversion...

The major effect is on wizards. The game material is pretty clear on that preservers and defilers are separate classes. There are some rules for a preserver later becoming a defiler in Defilers & Preservers, but basically the two are separate.

One of the plot points in the novels is that Sadira, the half-elven wizard hero, has a rather cavalier attitude to the whole preserving/defiling thing. She'd rather use preserving magic, but if she feels threatened enough she won't hesitate to defile (and does so a number of times in the novels). In order to accomodate this, the conversion people decided to make "wizard" a single class, with various feats and skills influencing the preserver/defiler thing.

Looking at the athas.org site, I also see that they have changed the Templar pretty heavily, making it a prestige class and totally changing the way they cast spells. Bah.

 

[Sammael99]

The major effect is on wizards. The game material is pretty clear on that preservers and defilers are separate classes. There are some rules for a preserver later becoming a defiler in Defilers & Preservers, but basically the two are separate.

One of the plot points in the novels is that Sadira, the half-elven wizard hero, has a rather cavalier attitude to the whole preserving/defiling thing. She'd rather use preserving magic, but if she feels threatened enough she won't hesitate to defile (and does so a number of times in the novels). In order to accomodate this, the conversion people decided to make "wizard" a single class, with various feats and skills influencing the preserver/defiler thing.

I see. I guess that's probably not too radical on the setting as a whole...

As I mentioned above, I haven't read all the DS material by far, but it seems to me the most complex thing to adapt would be psionics. I'm really waiting to see what they do with that. All the rest can probably be fudged with good knowledge of the 3E.

Speaking of defilers and preservers, I was dissapointed in the setting by the fact that the only distinction between the two was xp advancements... Once they've finalised the whole thing at athas.org, I'll check it up and cast judgement

 

[Heretic Apostate]

I'll have to disagree with Staffan here.

I read the Prism Pentad. The Prism Pentad got me interested in Dark Sun. I liked Dark Sun. In my opinion, the Dark Sun setting was a poorly-conceived attempt to adapt the Prism Pentad to AD&D 2E rules. And it was a mess. Every time they attempted to fix it, it got worse.

The only difference between a preserver and a defiler is how careless they are when drawing energy from around them. If someone is a Wizard (defiler) 14, and they decide to become a Wizard (preserver), do they suddenly forget everything they know on how to cast spells? They have to learn how to draw energy more carefully, but the spells have the same components. So why should the character have to multiclass? Or lose levels to convert? Or have the levels become ineffective, like a paladin who strays?

From what I can tell from the athas.org downloads, the only difference game-wise between a preserver and a defiler is that the defiler can draw upon more energy, and can use this energy to spontaneously add more metamagic than a preserver can. There doesn't seem to be a defiler "taint" any more. (Maybe I'm missing it.)

As for the Templar prestige class, don't think of it as ALL templars are from this class. That's like saying all barbarians in a barbarian tribe MUST take the barbarian class. In a barbarian tribe, there are also fighters, rangers, clerics (or shaman), bards, and so forth. In the templarate, there are going to be a few wizard-defilers, a few assassin-bards, a lot of fighters, a bunch of psions and psychic warriors, and some rogues. (There aren't going to be any clerics, there might be a few misguided druids and rangers, and I can't see there being many brutes/barbarians.) The elite, though, are the ones who have successfully petitioned their sorceror-monarchs for spells. How hard is it to get to Diplomacy 8? It should be easy to do through multi-classing. (A lot of rogue levels, for instance.)

 

[Staffan]

I'll have to disagree with Staffan here.

I read the Prism Pentad. The Prism Pentad got me interested in Dark Sun. I liked Dark Sun. In my opinion, the Dark Sun setting was a poorly-conceived attempt to adapt the Prism Pentad to AD&D 2E rules. And it was a mess. Every time they attempted to fix it, it got worse.

That is putting the cart before the kank. The game material is the base, and the novels are stories that take place in the world described by the game material. The only time I would consider a novel to be more "canon" than a game book is if the game book is based on the novel in the first place - the only DS book for which this is true is Psionic Artifacts of Athas (which got stuff wrong).

The only difference between a preserver and a defiler is how careless they are when drawing energy from around them.

That's not what the game material says. There is even game material that points to defiling being a separate skill. In one adventure, there is an ancient ruin where the diary of an ancient preserver tells of his attempts to figure out the strange defiling magic used by his opponents. Also, note that in the history Rajaat started to teach preserving magic openly and kept defiling magic a secret - if it was a simple matter of "pulling harder" when tapping energy, you would think that someone else would have figured it out.

As for the Templar prestige class, don't think of it as ALL templars are from this class. That's like saying all barbarians in a barbarian tribe MUST take the barbarian class. In a barbarian tribe, there are also fighters, rangers, clerics (or shaman), bards, and so forth. In the templarate, there are going to be a few wizard-defilers, a few assassin-bards, a lot of fighters, a bunch of psions and psychic warriors, and some rogues. (There aren't going to be any clerics, there might be a few misguided druids and rangers, and I can't see there being many brutes/barbarians.) The elite, though, are the ones who have successfully petitioned their sorceror-monarchs for spells. How hard is it to get to Diplomacy 8? It should be easy to do through multi-classing. (A lot of rogue levels, for instance.)

The problem is that that goes against the 2e game material. All templars except the very lowest rung (1st-level templars) have access to magic, usually without even meeting the sorcerer-king in person. Also, the athas.org templar casts spells based on Charisma (not Wisdom), and can cast spells spontaneously - all things that go against 2e game material.

I think the people at athas.org have fundamentally misunderstood what is meant by "conversion" - they aren't converting Dark Sun, they are rewriting it.

 

[theT0rmented]

I think the people at athas.org have fundamentally misunderstood what is meant by "conversion" - they aren't converting Dark Sun, they are rewriting it.

Exactly. We are not converting the 2E rules to 3E. We are making Dark Sun rules based on 3E. Very different. We have never said that we were making a conversion: it's always been a new version of DS using the 3E rules.

Obviously, by taking this route, there will be some differences with the previous rules, and not everyone will be happy. We felt that taking the flavor of the Prism Pentad was better than trying to fit old 2E rules to 3E.

The preserver/defiler being two separate classes introduces too many problems. Separate spell lists? Does that mean you have to take Metamagic feats twice (if you multiclass preserver/defiler) in order to apply them to each class? How do Myrmeleons infiltrate the Veiled Alliance? They multiclass? How do you balance the classes? If they are two separate classes, and the defiler is more powerful, where's the balance?

For the templars: you say using Charisma to cast spells breaks 2E rules. Then does the PHB sorcerer also break 2E rules?

The point is, that just because a mechanic wasn't present in 2E, that doesn't mean we can't look at what we think are better options to represent that mechanic in 3E.

 

[Heretic Apostate]

As for direct conversion of the 2E rules to 3E, there's a chap named Strutinan who's doing that. After the big snafu with WOTC cracking down on fan-based conversions, he took down his website, and will only give out copies under several conditions. (Something like: have to playtest, have to post reviews in a particular thread, etc.)

So, if you want to see a 2E-to-3E conversion, contact Strut on the WOTC boards.

 

[Staffan]

Exactly. We are not converting the 2E rules to 3E. We are making Dark Sun rules based on 3E. Very different. We have never said that we were making a conversion: it's always been a new version of DS using the 3E rules.

And that's the fundamental premise I disagree with.

Obviously, by taking this route, there will be some differences with the previous rules, and not everyone will be happy. We felt that taking the flavor of the Prism Pentad was better than trying to fit old 2E rules to 3E.

Since I'm one of those who got the campaign setting first, liked *that*, and didn't think the Prism Pentad was all that great (well, the Verdant Passage and Amber Enchantress were OK) you can see why I disagree with that premise.

The preserver/defiler being two separate classes introduces too many problems. Separate spell lists? Does that mean you have to take Metamagic feats twice (if you multiclass preserver/defiler) in order to apply them to each class? How do Myrmeleons infiltrate the Veiled Alliance? They multiclass? How do you balance the classes? If they are two separate classes, and the defiler is more powerful, where's the balance?

You certainly wouldn't need metamagic feats twice - you don't if you multiclass cleric/wizards, so why should you need it for defiler/preservers? As for Myrmeleons, I recall that they were said to use magic items to mimic preserver-style spell-casting in 2e. The defiler is balanced by the total lack of subtlety in his spellcasting - each spell leaves a black circle burned into the ground around him.

For the templars: you say using Charisma to cast spells breaks 2E rules. Then does the PHB sorcerer also break 2E rules?

The sorcerer doesn't break 2e rules, because there weren't sorcerers back then. Actually, I don't have much trouble with templars using Charisma for their spells (I'm not a big fan of it either - rather neutral on that issue) but I *do* disagree with making them a prestige class, and with having them cast spells as a sorcerer. One of the selling points of the templar class in 2e was that they had access to a HUGE amount of spells (major access to Cosmos, Air, Earth, Fire and Water - basically, the entire PHB priest list), and your revision reverses that by giving them access to only a few. Also, while there doesn't seem to be a templar spell list on the site, the writeup mentions vampiric touch in one of the examples - what's up with that?

The point is, that just because a mechanic wasn't present in 2E, that doesn't mean we can't look at what we think are better options to represent that mechanic in 3E.

But in this case you aren't making Dark Sun, you're making a new world that's kinda like Dark Sun.

 

[Blacksad]

But in this case you aren't making Dark Sun, you're making a new world that's kinda like Dark Sun.

I have to agree here.

But as in the case of the polyhedron conversion, it might be for a better game in its final version?

So, far it doesn't seems so (the skill check for spellcasting, is a mess), but perhaps it will get better.

 

[theT0rmented]

Since I'm one of those who got the campaign setting first, liked *that*, and didn't think the Prism Pentad was all that great (well, the Verdant Passage and Amber Enchantress were OK) you can see why I disagree with that premise.

Oh yes, I understand. Our "conversion" will not satisfy those who want a straight 2E to 3E conversion.

For defiler balance: what happens when you adventure in the wilderness? Nobody sees your ring of ash, so it hardly a penalty. A role-play penalty like that is hardly a good factor for balance.

Templar: I agree the templar needs revision. And I believe the templar works better as a PrC: it's a perfect PrC. It's a regional class: you have to come from a city-state.

But in this case you aren't making Dark Sun, you're making a new world that's kinda like Dark Sun.

Do you believe the flavor of a world comes from it's rules? I dont see where changing a few rules changes the setting...

 

[Henry]

And then, 180 degrees in the other direction, I LIKE the conversion that athas.org is doing.

Defiling was always described, even under the 2E rules, as a "different path" to power. However, it also said that it was about taking, and NOT giving back, that caused the defiling. You couldn not tell in 2E whether a defiler cast a spell, or whether a wizard cast a spell, simply by watching them. Only that tell-tale black circle identified them as defilers.

It makes sense to me, therefore, that if the defiler took without giving, why couldn't the wizard do the same thing, if he were not careful enough? There was once a Dragon Magazine article under 2E that covered this very same thing, and proposed rules for Preservers that defiled, and I loved it when I saw it. This is why I am glad they took this tactic at athas.org, because it makes much mroe sense from the perspective of the world.

Think of it this way: It is SUPPOSED to be harder to be a preserver than a defiler. What better way to do this than to make it a minor hassle for a player to be a preserver by adding the extra die roll for preserving? Players who disdain the roll can do so, and defile all they wish - but they need to be prepared for the consequences.

I also think that there should be feats to make it easier to preserve, to represent the time and attention given to the lifestyle. But that's a different story.

As for the original question, I think that got answered. There are no OFFICIAL plans for a publisher to pick up Dark Sun. Athas.org is as official as it gets, at the current time.