D20 Future: Heir Occupation too good?

[Belzbet]

D20 Future offers a new occupation, the heir. At the end there is a clause that states: "As long as her Reputation bonus is +1 heir’s wealth bonus can never drop below 10." That means that an heir can take 20 on their wealth checks and ALWAYS get an item of wealth DC 30 or below! AND their wealth bonus does not go down (if it was equal to 10, if it wasnt then it only goes down to 10)!! Many GOOD items are DC 30 and lower. Am I not reading this right?


here is the full text of the occupation:
HEIR
Heirs are the elite sons and daughters of powerful magnates, influential
nobles, and imperial monarchs. Unlike dilettantes, however,
they are bound by their lineage to certain responsibilities, with the
assumption that they might someday rise to lead their families into
the future . . . assuming the stars are properly aligned and they do
nothing to jeopardize their birthright.
Prerequisite: Age 21+.
Skills: Choose two of the following skills as permanent class
skills. If a skill you select is already a class skill, you gain a +1
competence bonus on checks using that skill.
Craft (visual art or writing) (Int), Knowledge (art, business, civics,
current events, or history) (Int), Perform (act, dance, keyboards, percussion
instruments, sing, stringed instruments, or wind instruments)
(Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis).
Pre-Selected Feat: An heir must choose the Educated feat as
one of her starting feats at 1st level.
Reputation Bonus Increase: +1.
Wealth Bonus Increase: +6. An heir may permanently reduce
her Reputation bonus by 1 to increase her starting wealth bonus by
an additional +1d6; this expenditure must be made before the character
begins play. As long as her Reputation bonus is +1 or higher, an
heir’s wealth bonus can never drop below 10.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Wealth had enough problems without this occupation. Having said that, once a PC reaches Wealth 15, the system is "broken" anyway, so having a minimum Wealth of 10 is hardly creating new problems.

If you take 20 on Wealth checks, you probably should be losing more Wealth than stated. The real problem is that, in Modern, Wealth is almost useless (what GM lets you buy tanks?), whereas in d20 Future, you can buy stuff with Wealth. Incredibly powerful stuff, with no balance (as in genetic engineering is not balanced with robotics, etc). Again, GM's decision as to what you can buy. The GM had better limit sources, otherwise they can easily break their game. (I went through a campaign where the GM did not do so...)

That's not even touching the Ability Plus feats and tons of cheese

 

[Belzbet]

Wealth had enough problems without this occupation. Having said that, once a PC reaches Wealth 15, the system is "broken" anyway, so having a minimum Wealth of 10 is hardly creating new problems.

If you take 20 on Wealth checks, you probably should be losing more Wealth than stated. The real problem is that, in Modern, Wealth is almost useless (what GM lets you buy tanks?), whereas in d20 Future, you can buy stuff with Wealth. Incredibly powerful stuff, with no balance (as in genetic engineering is not balanced with robotics, etc). Again, GM's decision as to what you can buy. The GM had better limit sources, otherwise they can easily break their game. (I went through a campaign where the GM did not do so...)

That's not even touching the Ability Plus feats and tons of cheese

Yeah I have never actually GMed a D20 future game. The wealth system seems cool but I can see how abuse may be on par with D&D and magic, although thats a big torch to carry (and the heir can afford very good stuff from level 1 up). I notice that you can get cybernetic implants, biotech (if you use gamma world rules), also you can own a mecha, robots, vehicles, and starships, if your a robot you can get direct upgrades (with no limit except your wealth) and more. All in all though I think it sounds rather exciting and it may be fun to GM a gestalt future game allowing the players to take 2 advanced classes at once (mecha jockey/cybernaut sounds fun!)...

 

[wingsandsword]

The Wealth system was one of the bigger issues with d20 Modern (that and little things like the nonlethal damage system).

Overall, d20 Modern is/was a good game, but it seemed to have the same overall problem that D&D 3.0 had: It could have used a lot more rigorous playtesting. 3.0e got an overhaul into 3.5e which fixed a lot of the more persistent problems it had, but d20 Modern never got the benefit of such a comprehensive fix.

I understand that the whole concept of the Heir background, which works well for certain settings like some parts of Space Opera settings. Could you imagine Bail Organa running out of money, the man who basically personally bankrolled the Rebel Alliance? I think it was meant to represent access to that sort of uber-wealth that comes with being part of a noble house or major shareholder in a megacorp. I see that the concept has merit, but the mechanism as-written could be abused.

If I was running a d20 Modern/Future game, I would be very hesitant to allow the Heir background to a PC. I wouldn't ban it outright, but I would be careful about it and it would probably come with some catches. You don't become that wealthy without making some enemies, owing some favors, and if you're literally an heir, the person you are inheriting from probably has some "requests" as a price for that near-infinite money access.

 

[GSHamster]

The "heir" archetype is an actual archetype in scifi/space opera. Consider Asprin's Phule series, or the character Julia Evans in Peter F. Hamilton's Mindstar Rising, or possibly Miles Vorkosigan in Bujold's Vorkosigan series.

The idea that money pretty much doesn't matter is accurate for this archetype. The only things they can't buy are the things which don't exist or the things which are not for sale. But it's hard to write meaningful challenges for them. Challenges tend to revolve around diplomacy or influence, rather than challenges that can be beaten by purchasing the right item.

I think in some ways, having the "heir" background in the books might have been an attempt to model these characters, without really considering how hard it made writing actual adventures.

 

[Belzbet]

I am thinking... maybe the wealth system of D20 future would work better if you could not take 20 on a wealth check. Its not a perfect fix by any standard but... any thoughts?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

There are numerous ways of abusing Wealth. Not being able to take 20 still leaves holes.

Wealth has nothing to do with balance. In Modern, high Wealth was rarely a problem. You can't just buy a rocket launcher in real life; this is one of those few areas where you could "break" the game with a permissive GM letting you buy stuff. (If you steal one for a motorcycle gang, they expect to read about it in the papers, because such a theft is rare.)

Unfortunately, d20 Future allowed all these poorly balanced subsystems, many "balanced" by Wealth, which is just a contradiction. If the only thing "balancing" these subsystems isn't balanced, then they're not balanced.

 

[fireinthedust]

then again, if they can't access that wealth during an adventure it isn't an issue.

I'd have it where they have to have contact with their family, and the purchases have to have a source, and some other in-context things. You want a new ship? Sure, but find someone to build them for you, do it before the bad guys attack, and don't let them steal it.


You can have computer skills out the wazoo, but if you're stuck in the deserts of Arakis you're fraked.


Computer skills are much scarier to me as a GM, simply because of 90s internet-magic. hacker PCs can (to my ludite mind) take over the planet easily with a computer console and a "splicer" or something. I don't know. Now it's worse: cell phones, iPads... in my day you had to be human shaped to count as an android! (cough, wheeze, I'm not old I'm just bad with machines)


But yeah, money isn't an issue if the PCs can't find a) a store, and b) their credit card. whether or not the Wealth system stinks, you can always put those in their paths.

 

[fireinthedust]

also: always wanted to play in a d20 future game. No one wants to play it but me. I have so many books for that, too, and I'm awfully nice. Crying shame, and I'm certain you empathize.



also: tried to pbp one, but only got two players. One of them literally gave himself the entire equipment list plus all the hi-tech gear ever. Phone book level equipment sheet. Why would he think he could start with *everything*? Do I see that in a d&D game? Oy!

 

[wingsandsword]

I am thinking... maybe the wealth system of D20 future would work better if you could not take 20 on a wealth check. Its not a perfect fix by any standard but... any thoughts?

The whole point of taking 20 on a wealth check is to represent doing paperwork and taking time to arrange financing.

Buying a new car would be Taking 20 on a wealth check for most people, because they would have to take time to set up the financing, make some calls, get credit approval for a loan, and still manage to have enough money on-hand to cover the down payment. Also, don't forget that any wealth check is supposed to take 1 hour per point of the DC, so it takes 30 hours to make a DC 30 purchase. That means you can't just whip out your charge card and do it (taking 10 gets you DC 20, equivalent to $2000), you have to spend time making arrangements, which will take more than a day (even working 12 hours a day on arranging the financing, which is pushing it for how long businesses are usually open, it will take into the third day of work on the issue).

For taking 20 with that minimum Wealth bonus of 10, what is that equal? According to the core rules, a Purchase DC of 30 is supposed to be equivalent to $35,000 (in presumably 2002 dollars).

Think of a rich trust fund brat who won't ever really run out of money because his father is a billionaire, he might not have billions to spend on his own and has to live on an allowance, but it's a big allowance, because somebody backs him financially and won't let him end up poor, even if it doesn't mean he gets blank checks.