D20 Linguistics

[nopantsyet]

Yes. I love the idea, and I would buy it in PDF or print. A few thoughts...

First, and this is a dealbreaker. Absolutely NO Tolkien, and no Tolkienesque anything. Seriously. I love Tolkien and everything Tolkien, but I don't want a rehash or a doever. I want something unique. That includes any reinterpretation of elvish, dwarvish, et. al.

Second, what everybody else said.

Third, the big thing I'd like to see is a good framework for creating a sparse language. That is, obviously very few of us are going to try to create complete languages, and anyone who is probably won't be interested in this book anyway. But to create some consistency, I want a pattern. Something like: determine the complexity of the language, create a specified number of phoneme combinations based on the complexity, and assign them to word types. Include something to help in creation of names, based on the phoneme lists. And what are different sources and inspirations real cultures have used for names?

Third, get into some funky linguistics stuff that we'd have to work really hard to find out. And throw in something cool and unexpected. Something to inspire on a higher level, like the relationship between language and culture, myth, etc.

Finally, get the Expeditious Retreat Press books, A Magical Society: Ecology and Culture and A Magical Medieval Society: Western Eurpoe. Read them. Know a good thing when you see it. They have come up with a great approach to presenting complicated real-life concepts in a useful way. Use your crunch wisely. Inspire and equip us to use language in new and realistic-enough ways.

Now hurry up--cause I want this yesterday!

 

[mythusmage]

A of W, you really want to do this, then I wish you the best with the project. If nothing else it could form the basis of a doctoral thesis.

One subject you might wish to consider is how the medium shapes symbols. For instance...

Sumerian cuneiform was marks made by a stylus in clay. Babylonian, Assyrian, Ugaritic cuneiform etc. was much the same.

Phoenecian script was Ugaritic cuneiform adapted to papyrus. Greek and Roman script Phoenecian adapted to vellum and parchment. With the Romans making further changes for inscriptions in fine-grained stone.

Egyptian heiroglyphics was developed with papyrus, while Chinese ideographs were designed with paper and silk cloth.

Germanic/Nordic runes were designed for carving into wood, and might be based on Phoenecian Script. (Them Phoenecians went most everywhere.)

Finally, Ogham (Irish Gaelic script) was designed for 'painting' on fine grained rocks. Granite boulders for example.

So, would dwarfs, with their lithic environment, develop a script like Ogham. Or would they devise a cuneiform like style of writing for use with clay tablets? Would elves develop runes, or a more flowing 'painted' script for 'inscribing' on boulders?

And what shape would writing take if bone and ivory was the medium?

Hope this helps.

 

[barsoomcore]

mm, that's very well-pointed-out. And it gets even more interesting when you start to bring magic into the picture.

This project could get REALLY cool if it dipped its toes in the "alternate magic systems" stream.

That's a stream I do a lot of drinking from, so excuse me if I'm all tingly.

But magic and language have always been very closely related, in many societies around the world. What if those traditions and beliefs were TRUE? How would different languages develop and direct magical power?

Hm. Brain moving too fast. Time for dinner....

 

[haiiro]

I'm anal enough to really enjoy creating names and language snippets that have solid underpinnings for my games -- I love when products include enough info to do so for fantasy/sci-fi languages. I say go for it.

 

[GuardianLurker]

As for the socio-linguistics, I'd definitely include the politeness conventions and idioms (especially any principles that may underlie the latter), as both of these will directly impact role-play.

The language domination can probably just be folded into the language tree somehow. (Bits on language aging would be cool.)

And I'm not sure what you mean by Pragmatics (at least in this context) - it's been way too long since my college linguistics course.

Overall, crunch is a little more important to me than fluff (Must keep wheels from spinning...), but next in line is something that will help me RP the peoples of different species and cultures, consistently.

The final/least important thing are "cool linguistic" thingys. Like Ur languages, Primal tongues, telepathic languages, and so on.

 

[resistor]

telepathic languages

Ooo... I hadn't even thought of that. Best.idea.ever!

 

[SSquirrel]

(WARNING: we are moving to India on Wednesday, so we may not respond the quickest around then... )

joe b.

Geez even the GAMERS are outsourcing their stuff to India *grin*

I own the Languages of Middle Earth book and find it fascinating. I would probly pick this up as well

Hagen

 

[glass]

I voted maybe, but if it covers the stuff mentioned in the thread in a readable manor, I change my mind. I'd buy it, let alone download it for free.

If you want an example of a usable gaming book, that is also very informative, check out a GURPS supplement (GURPS Bio-Tech is a particularly good one).

While I have the floor, I'll relate a thought I had. What about long lived races such as elves? Would their languages evolve more slowly than humans'? Would languages with immortal speakers such as Celestial and Abyssal evolve at all? What do the experts here think?



glass.

 

[vulcan_idic]

Yeah, I love languages!! I'm no linguist, but I like to dabble in languages. I usually try to draw names for charaters and places both in gaming and writing from the various languages I know various bits of... French, German, Russian, Klingon... (one of my favorite names was for a good Dark Elf who went by Tom... but his full name was Tyomnaia Ruka-Sveta... roughly translated from the transliterated Russian, "Dark Hand of the Light") but in-game languages have always been frustratingly elusive to me. They are mentioned, they show up on your character sheet, but they are rarely if ever brought to life, given sound and sight, which, whether you understand them or not, gives you a taste of the people, the culture that produces it... So, in a word, YES!! Please do!! I do indeed wholeheartedly agree with one of the folks I read on the thread who said, I believe, "even if it had three college textbooks in it"!! Actually.... could you list a few good college level textbooks on the subject? It's something I'd like to dangle my toes into at some point and would appreciate being pointed in a more fruitful direction (I am well aware that all college textbooks are not created equal)!

 

[Knight Otu]

While I have the floor, I'll relate a thought I had. What about long lived races such as elves? Would their languages evolve more slowly than humans'? Would languages with immortal speakers such as Celestial and Abyssal evolve at all? What do the experts here think?

I'm far from being an expert, but I'd say those languages evolve slowly, as they are introduced to new concepts and other languages. Even during our lifetimes, the languages we speak evolve slowly, words taking on new meanings, words being borrowed from other languages, etc (two infamous examples from german - Handy for cell phones, and Body Bags for backpacks). So yes, I'd say that the Celestial spoken "today" is not the same language it used to be, possibly to the dismay of the first Celestials ("Oh, I remember the good old times when soul was positive energy in general, not the narrow concept you young ones are used to!")