d20 modern classless

[Vigilance]

Strong Hero is actually more straitjacketed than the fighter class.

d20 Modern isn't almost classless, and the base classes aren't that generic. Each one has a lot of assumptions built into it - most notably in the class skills, # of skill points, bonus feats, and attack/defense bonuses.

Right- assuming you take all your levels as Strong Hero.

But the fact that you can alternate between Strong and Smart, or Strong, Smart and Fast, or Strong, Smart, Fast, and Soldier etc, makes the choices you have pretty identical to the choices you would have in a classless point based system.

I believe that was Taky's point about multi-classing making d20 Modern virtually classless.

Chuck

 

[Spatula]

But the fact that you can alternate between Strong and Smart, or Strong, Smart and Fast, or Strong, Smart, Fast, and Soldier etc, makes the choices you have pretty identical to the choices you would have in a classless point based system.

Sure, but then you dilute your character with skills, feats, and bonuses that are peripheral to your core concept.

For example, if you want all the Leadership talents from the Charismatic Hero, you're forced to take 5 levels of a skill-heavy and combat-poor class in order to get them. If you're interested in creating a natural-born leader that is combat-heavy and skill-poor, you'll be taking those 5 levels on top of whatever other classes you need to be effective in battle. The end result is that, while you can eventually get what you're after, you'll be 10th level by the time you get there. And saddled with a lot of other abilities that you don't want. While characters that play into the stereotypes that the classes support have fully realized their concept after only a few levels.

A truly generic system would trim the unwanted abilities from the 'unusual' concepts and make them much more viable. It wouldn't offer any substantial benefit to the more 'traditional' characters, though, and if that's what you're looking for then a more involved system probably doesn't make much sense. But I find myself wrestling and butting heads with d20 Modern every time I try to make a character that interests me.

 

[Vigilance]

Well-everything is a trade off. In a point based system, you might find it difficult to pay for a concept that makes you charismatic, a true leader, AND a great fighter.

Also- having run those games a lot, like Hero and GURPs, writing up characters takes a long time, and for the Gm that's especially a burden making adventures.

Still- I hardly think the d20 Modern classes are a straight jacket, and they certainly aren't MORE of a straight jacket than D&D classes.

I have found d20 Modern to be very adaptable and well designed, and my players seem to be able to make characters that are fun and interesting.

If it takes you 10 levels to get exactly the character you want, that doesnt make the system bad imo.

It sounds like a goal.

If your character is everything you want it to be at 5th level Id be bored with that character by 6th level.

Chuck

 

[Malacoda]

Rather than dance around the d20 license, as you put it, why not just make the game OGC? Then you can discuss character generation all you want.

This is what Mutants and Masterminds did, and for a book that IS a character generation system (I had your old PDF and dug it btw), you would be able to explain things in much greater detail. The only thing you really lose is the d20 logo. And that doesnt seem to have hurt M&M any

M&M can get away with this because they are a game unto themselves. Custom Heroes is specifically a supplement to d20 Modern. In theory I could make it a standalone game, but that would have some serious drawbacks. Most notably, but making it a d20SL game and tying it d20 Modern, I get name recognition. As a small publisher with virtually no budget, this is very important. Green Ronin may not be quite WotC or White Wolf, but they are big enough to finance advertising, and popular enough to get widespread name recognition.

If I was to make a complete game and try to sell it on RPGNow, I can’t claim d20 compatibility and I can’t tie it to Modern, I have to try and sell it on its own merits, and that is not easy to do without an advertising budget. There are ways to get across that it is a d20 game without calling it that, but that requires that the potential customer stick around long enough to read the description.

Besides, I managed to say nearly everything I need to despite the limitations on character creation in d20SL game. Once I took a good look at the limitations, it was quite easy to do. The only thing I couldn’t do was rules on races, but those will go in a supplement, which won’t have the d20 logo. That actually works out well, since I have other things for the supplement, so the two books work out balanced.

A personal aside, Chuck, I e-mailed you a few times on using some OGC from Blood & Fists, but I never heard back. Did you ever get those e-mails? Plus, thanks for the complement on the previous version!

 

[Spatula]

Well-everything is a trade off. In a point based system, you might find it difficult to pay for a concept that makes you charismatic, a true leader, AND a great fighter.

Trade-offs are fine. My example was for a leader that was effective in combat, not great. The Charismatic and Smart classes have already been 'point-bought' to focus on skills instead of fighting, which makes it difficult to pick up those classes' talents without sacrificing a lot of combat ability. Or if you wanted to make a Strong or Tough Hero with a lot of skills, it can't be easily done.

If it takes you 10 levels to get exactly the character you want, that doesnt make the system bad imo.

It sounds like a goal.

If your character is everything you want it to be at 5th level Id be bored with that character by 6th level.

No character is everything that I want it to be at any point in time. The character can always continue to improve, or branch off into new directions. The goal is to be effective at what you want to do with your character, relative to the rest of the party.

Anyway, now I've had a quick glance at the initial version of Malacoda's The Complete Hero, and I like it. I haven't examined it closely, so I don't know how well the balance works out, but it looks great, and surprisingly simple.

 

[Vigilance]

M&M can get away with this because they are a game unto themselves. Custom Heroes is specifically a supplement to d20 Modern. In theory I could make it a standalone game, but that would have some serious drawbacks. Most notably, but making it a d20SL game and tying it d20 Modern, I get name recognition. As a small publisher with virtually no budget, this is very important. Green Ronin may not be quite WotC or White Wolf, but they are big enough to finance advertising, and popular enough to get widespread name recognition.

If I was to make a complete game and try to sell it on RPGNow, I can’t claim d20 compatibility and I can’t tie it to Modern, I have to try and sell it on its own merits, and that is not easy to do without an advertising budget. There are ways to get across that it is a d20 game without calling it that, but that requires that the potential customer stick around long enough to read the description.

Besides, I managed to say nearly everything I need to despite the limitations on character creation in d20SL game. Once I took a good look at the limitations, it was quite easy to do. The only thing I couldn’t do was rules on races, but those will go in a supplement, which won’t have the d20 logo. That actually works out well, since I have other things for the supplement, so the two books work out balanced.

A personal aside, Chuck, I e-mailed you a few times on using some OGC from Blood & Fists, but I never heard back. Did you ever get those e-mails? Plus, thanks for the complement on the previous version!

Heya Leroy- I probably got you mails- but sometimes I go through quickly and miss things like that. Send again and I promise to get back to you

Chuck

 

[Malacoda]

Also- having run those games a lot, like Hero and GURPS, writing up characters takes a long time, and for the Gm that's especially a burden making adventures.

I have to chime in and add that in my own system most NPCs can be made via the standard system of classes. While The Custom Hero is not quite 100% balanced with the standard system—that may be impossible—it comes close enough it will rarely matter. Then, you can spend the time and effort on the NPCs who need the tweaking.

Plus, I am not so certainly that you are completely correct, at least for Custom Heroes. When it comes to basic numerical traits, points can be faster as they take less reference. If you are building someone who is going to be a badass gunmen, you need to decide on which classes and levels it will take. Then, you have to reference each class and their traits.

With Custom Heroes you take the number of points they have for their level, spread them out, make sure they don’t go above their level limit, then choose skills and feats. You will have to watch feat prereqs, but that is always true. Want them to have a BAB of +4? Then they have it. No need to look up classes and mix and match to get what you need.

Still- I hardly think the d20 Modern classes are a straight jacket, and they certainly aren't MORE of a straight jacket than D&D classes.

I have found d20 Modern to be very adaptable and well designed, and my players seem to be able to make characters that are fun and interesting.

I wouldn’t use the term “straightjacket”; that is a bit extreme. I would use the term “baggage,” though. Each class has baggage that may or may not be applicable to your character. Plus, some classes have benefits that aren’t always useful, and you have no recourse when they are not.

For example, the Smart Hero has a good Will save and lousy Fort and Reflex. In a campaign with magic or psi, this is OK. Stops you from being mind controlled or dropped to sleep. But in a mundane, no-FX campaign, your Will save mean jack, and you get nothing to make up for it. But the Tough Hero? His good save is handy all around.

The classes of d20 Modern are certainly more freeform and flexible than most out there. But they are still classes, and they still have baggage, and for some people that just isn’t satisfactory. And some of those people like the rest of the d20 system. I know I do. I like the skills, the feats, the overall feel and the mechanics. I can’t get that via GURPS or HERO or whatever. For us, the best choice to get rid of classes in d20. So, I did that.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Re: That Would Be Me...

The system Takyris is referring to is The Custom Hero (TCH). I had a web page up with the PDF file, but have since taken it down. I am currently working on version 2.0 of TCH, and while the basic concepts will remain, some things are being rewritten, and I am adding a ton of stuff. Plus, some things need to be worded properly to carry the d20 logo. I had to do some semantic dancing in order to get rules for character creation into a d20 product when the license doesn't allow rules on character creation.

TCH 2.0 will also have rules for magic, including most of the types of magic found in D&D, with point costs for eveything.

I am also working on a supplement (which is currently waiting on the 3.5e SRD) that will include all of the racial, class, prestige class and monster abilities from 3.5e with point costs. After that comes a supplement with a set of rules for superpowers, which is coming along very well.

So when oh when oh when can I get my hands on TCH 2.0?? It sounds awesome and I'm really itching to see the pdf! Please hurry!
News, any news are most welcome

-Holding my breath-
Sorcica

 

[Malacoda]

Re: Re: That Would Be Me...

So when oh when oh when can I get my hands on TCH 2.0?? It sounds awesome and I'm really itching to see the pdf! Please hurry!
News, any news are most welcome

I don't visit for a while and of course someone asks me a question! Not sure if anyone will read this, but here goes...

Custom Heroes 2.0 is coming along, but now a bit slower than it was. I had to wait for the 3.5e SRD for a number of reasons. Plus, I was recently promoted, which means I will be much busier at work. I used to do a lot of writing at work (how cool is that?), so the end result is slower progress.

Also, I need to find a stopping point for new stuff! I need to start thinking of some of the chapters as complete (barring editing), otherwise it may keep on going. Need to save some of that stuff for the supplement.

I really have three main things left to do:

1. Complete the magic section. Much has been done on this, but there is still a ways to go.

2. Start and finish the psi section. No work has been done on this yet. This section may be a pain.

3. Add in the stuff from other d20 Modern sources I am using, such as some martial arts feats from Blood and Fist, and stuff from the two Modern Players Companions from TGM (and I still need to buy the second MPC).

After that, I am going to scrape up some money and pay ot have it edited by someone who has experience with such things. The final step will be to tweak the layout, make a few PDFs and send it off to RPGNow.

That may be more info than you wanted, but should give you some idea of where it is at.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Re: Re: Re: That Would Be Me...

I don't visit for a while and of course someone asks me a question! Not sure if anyone will read this, but here goes...

Custom Heroes 2.0 is coming along, but now a bit slower than it was. I had to wait for the 3.5e SRD for a number of reasons. Plus, I was recently promoted, which means I will be much busier at work. I used to do a lot of writing at work (how cool is that?), so the end result is slower progress.

Also, I need to find a stopping point for new stuff! I need to start thinking of some of the chapters as complete (barring editing), otherwise it may keep on going. Need to save some of that stuff for the supplement.

I really have three main things left to do:

1. Complete the magic section. Much has been done on this, but there is still a ways to go.

2. Start and finish the psi section. No work has been done on this yet. This section may be a pain.

3. Add in the stuff from other d20 Modern sources I am using, such as some martial arts feats from Blood and Fist, and stuff from the two Modern Players Companions from TGM (and I still need to buy the second MPC).

After that, I am going to scrape up some money and pay ot have it edited by someone who has experience with such things. The final step will be to tweak the layout, make a few PDFs and send it off to RPGNow.

That may be more info than you wanted, but should give you some idea of where it is at.

That's a lot of needful information. Thanks!

Congratulations on the promotion. Very impressive considering you did engage in what some would call 'non-work related activity'.

TCH 2.0 sounds like a blast. What about the magic and psi? Is it based on d20 modern which means D&D or something completely different? A skill and feat system would be very cool indeed.

Well, keep up the good work!

-Sorcica