d20 Modern: The Avengers Challenge!

[fireinthedust]

THE COMPETITION: Who can stat up the best "Avengers" and other Marvel heroes using d20 Modern RAW? We'll see some entries, and if XP isn't enough, maybe vote on the best ones?


THE REASON: I was reading another thread on these boards, and I got to thinking: what would be a way of plausibly statting up the Avengers (and other heroes) using d20 Modern, Future, and other d20 sources?

After all, that's the "flavour" of the recent movies, especially Iron Man.

[sblock=Tony Stark Suggestion in that thread]

I'll jump in. Tony Stark is a genius. No. That isn't good enough, he's the type of genius where a "normal" genius like Sir Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, or Stephen Hawking would only understand the gist of what he is saying.

In the film it mentions him having graduated from MIT summa cum laude, having entered at age 15 and graduating top of his class. MIT doesn't track that. It doesn't have Latin honors, valedictorians, and the like. Graduating from MIT is the honor. Tony Stark is so freaking smart that (in universe) MIT broke their own rules to recognize his mind blowing intelligence level.

So born 18, leveling at 4 and 6 bring that to a 20. Plus some kind of child prodigy, and successful genius feats*. So we can give him a 22 Int. Doesn't seem that epic. But with, max ranks in Knowledge (we'll say engineering cover building the suit) he has a +9 without his INT mod, +15 with it. Skill Focus in that Knowledge (engineering) that is +18. His lab give +2 circumstantial bonus, Jarvis is using Aid Another +2, and we'll include something from the robots (+2) and a synergy +2 bonus. So we have a +26 to the knowledge check. If he rolls a 20 he gets a 46 that knowledge check. According to the SRD a "really tough" knowledge question is 20-30. Getting a 45+ Knowledge (Engineering) check: you get the Iron Man Suit. This is keeping him at 6th level and using three feats.

So I say a 22 INT with two feats combining to give a (combined) +2 bonus to INT. If you make him in the "heroic tier" of 3.5 you can boost it, going "wuxia" and "suerpheroes" really lets you bring his capabilities to insane levels.


*Many people who are child prodigies don't go on to be geniuses, they basically become normal when the age.

[/sblock]


THE RULES:

1) Use RAW, state all books used. D&D material only where truly needed and appropriate. D20 Modern, and related books, wherever possible.

2) 25 point buy for ability scores!!! These are not necessarily superheroes, but "real" characters who approximate the Avengers or other heroes.

3) LOW LEVEL please! They should hopefully be usable by players asap, not after ten years of weekly games.

4) If you're going to homebrew something, use the RAW method for designing them AND mention why you're using that and not another source.

5) This is not necessarily for "superheroes", but it can also be a slightly alternate version of the heroes that ends up having a similar result. This is similar to how the Ultimate comics tried taking the original and in places somewhat campy aspects of the Marvel Universe, and made them "plausible" or at least seem so. Toned down is okay, so long as aspects of the original are there and at least touched upon. They don't have to be invincible vs regular PCs, for example. Power sources can be different than Marvel, so long as the basic shell is there. (re-skinned is a great term for this)

6) XP from me for the winners!

 

[delericho]

That's a real tricky challenge, for two big reasons:

1) Those characters are not low-level! In creating rules-legal low-level versions, you're at best going to get nascent heroes with the merest hint of Iron Man, Captain America, and so on.

2) d20 Modern isn't really a great fit for superheroes (although I should note that I don't have the "d20 Supers" supplement). For those characters, "Mutants & Masterminds", or even plain D&D, makes for a much better representation.

Indeed, for D&D it's rather neat:

Stark is a 12th level Artificer with maxed Int, Captain America is a 12th level Paladin, Thor is a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 5 (or 4 or 3, depending on how you want to stat the Asgardian race), Black Widow is a 12th level Rogue (or perhaps swap for some Assassin or Master Spy levels), and Hawkeye is a 12th level Ranger. Bruce Banner is the only tricky one, who I would peg as an Expert 5/Monk 5, with a custom LA +3 template similar to the Werebear, with the Hulk form (only) getting massive Str and Con bonuses, Int and Wis penalties, the barbarian's Rage ability, and powerful regeneration.

Oh, and Loki is a Bard of an appropriate level.

(Incidentally, I don't necessarily agree with the assessment that Thor/Iron Man/Hulk are strictly more powerful than Cap/BW/Hawkeye. A large part of the apparent disparity is that "Avengers Assemble" was a combat-focussed adventure, but the Captain is built with lots of leadership-type abilities, and Black Widow has lots of stealth/infiltration/interrogation abilities. Oh, and Hawkeye is clearly built using the 3.0e Ranger, which as we know sucks quite badly!)

However, since the challenge was for d20 Modern characters...

Tony
1st level Dedicated Hero
Str 10, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 13
Skills: Max out Bluff, Computer Use, Craft (appropriate), Diplomacy, Knowledge (appropriate), Perform (showman), Pilot, Profession
Feats: Aircraft Operation, Windfall

Advance as a Genius/Billionaire/Philanthropist, using the Mecha Crusade rules from "d20 Future".

Natalia
1st level Fast Hero
Str 8, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 14

Advance as a mix of Fast and Charismatic Hero, probably moving into some sort of Agent advanced class, and then an Assassin or Spy prestige class.

Clinton
1st level Fast Hero
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10

Advance as a Fast Hero, moving into some sort of Agent advanced class, and then Special Ops prestige class.

Steve
1st level Charismatic Hero
Str 15, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 12

Advance as a mix of Strong, Dedicated and Charismatic Hero.

Thor
1st level Strong Hero
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12

Advance as a Strong Hero, moving into a magical advanced class as soon as possible, aiming for the equivalent of the Edlritch Knight.

The Hulk really needs to be modelled as two characters, switching between the two at appropriate times...

Bruce
1st level Smart Hero
Str 9, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 12

Hulk
1st level Tough Hero
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8

Well, it's a start...

Sticking with the 25-point buy was extremely tough, because several of these characters are portrayed as being at the limit of human ability, which really needs reflected in an 18 in the applicable stat (meaning huge compromises elsewhere). And, of course, more than one is simply superhuman. I've therefore gone for a more balanced array in most cases, trying to reflect their relative strengths and weaknesses rather than trying to present some sort of 'absolute' value.

This is one of the reasons I would tend to prefer "Mutants & Masterminds" for this sort of thing - the point-buy allows characters like Captain America to buy relatively higher stats across the board, trading off any flashy superpowers. Conversely, Thor could then have relatively weaker stats, but more flashy powers, while Iron Man has one exceptional stat, the rest near-average, but has a huge amount of power built into his suit.

 

[Razjah]

Sticking with the 25-point buy was extremely tough, because several of these characters are portrayed as being at the limit of human ability, which really needs reflected in an 18 in the applicable stat (meaning huge compromises elsewhere). And, of course, more than one is simply superhuman. I've therefore gone for a more balanced array in most cases, trying to reflect their relative strengths and weaknesses rather than trying to present some sort of 'absolute' value.

This is one of the reasons I would tend to prefer "Mutants & Masterminds" for this sort of thing - the point-buy allows characters like Captain America to buy relatively higher stats across the board, trading off any flashy superpowers. Conversely, Thor could then have relatively weaker stats, but more flashy powers, while Iron Man has one exceptional stat, the rest near-average, but has a huge amount of power built into his suit.

I agree. I also think the 25 point buy for PCs is jank. To have a one stat at 17 and hurts the characters points so much that you are left with 8s and maybe one salvageable stat.

I don't think Tony Stark would be an 12th level Artificer, but I see the argument. Especially considering I messed up the stats for Stark and boosted his INT at levels 4 and 6. I think he could be maybe level 8. In a supers game, Hawkeye and Black Widow are not super powerful. Compared to the rest they are low level. I think you can stat out Tony at level 8 reasonably, but Natalia and Clinton are probably level 5. Captain America would be level 8-10. Thor would be closer to 10-12. Hulk, I quit. Banner is a 4th level expert. Hulk is a plot powered beast with uncapped stat gain tied to his stats.

Based on what I aw reading through the Modern SRD, I couldn't build any of the Avengers. Hawkeye and Black Widow can be approximated, but you will never get his shooting ability or enough skills to cover her interrogation abilities. I could ballpark Stark and his checks needed to make the suit- not the suit. Captain America is superhuman, and needs more points and special equipment. Thor is a freaking god, needs more points and special equipment and some magic ability. This game doesn't cover Hulk well enough. I think start with tough hero, and rage ability.

 

[delericho]

I agree. I also think the 25 point buy for PCs is jank. To have a one stat at 17 and hurts the characters points so much that you are left with 8s and maybe one salvageable stat.

For PCs, and for the overwhelming majority of NPCs, I would strongly advise against taking that 17. In general, I try to encourage new players to consider 17 the limit of real-world human capability - that is, the Hawkings, Einsteins, and the like have a 17 Intelligence. Thus, if they assign an 18 to the stat, it's because they consider the character to be already somewhat superhuman - a Tony Stark (int), Rocky Balboa (Con), or James Kirk (Cha).

Of course, that's not entirely borne out in the rules, and it's certainly not the standard interpretation. But I do find this trend to ever-increasing stats to be troublesome (and especially 4e's assumption that all PCs would have an 18, and that most would have a 20).

Also, as I noted in the other thread, 25-point buy is founded on a shaky foundation - 28 would actually be a better choice.

I don't think Tony Stark would be an 12th level Artificer, but I see the argument. Especially considering I messed up the stats for Stark and boosted his INT at levels 4 and 6. I think he could be maybe level 8. In a supers game, Hawkeye and Black Widow are not super powerful. Compared to the rest they are low level. I think you can stat out Tony at level 8 reasonably, but Natalia and Clinton are probably level 5. Captain America would be level 8-10. Thor would be closer to 10-12. Hulk, I quit. Banner is a 4th level expert. Hulk is a plot powered beast with uncapped stat gain tied to his stats.

That depends entirely on how their 'game system' values different types of skills, and what skills they have that have not been shown. As I said, "Avengers Assemble" was a combat-focussed adventure, so those two characters didn't get much of a chance to shine. However, from the other films, it certainly looked like those two had much more diverse skillsets than the other, more focused characters. As such, I could readily see them as generalists rather than specialists, even at the same character level. (And a generalist will always look relatively weaker next to a specialist character if they're operating in an environment where the specialist's skills apply. Of course, once you move the specialist out of his "comfort zone", the balance of power changes.)

(As for the levels I assigned... I'm not particularly wedded to 12th level as the value to use. I could happily agree to almost anything in the 6th - 12th level range in 3.5e, or in the Paragon tier in 4e. But for playing in a hypothetical Avengers RPG, I would certainly want everyone to use the same level, even if that meant compromising some character abilities.)

Based on what I aw reading through the Modern SRD, I couldn't build any of the Avengers. Hawkeye and Black Widow can be approximated, but you will never get his shooting ability or enough skills to cover her interrogation abilities. I could ballpark Stark and his checks needed to make the suit- not the suit. Captain America is superhuman, and needs more points and special equipment. Thor is a freaking god, needs more points and special equipment and some magic ability. This game doesn't cover Hulk well enough. I think start with tough hero, and rage ability.

Broadly speaking, I agree. In particular, in order to build the Hulk I think you need the ability to take on very signficant drawbacks in return for massive boosts in very specialised areas - something that d20 Modern doesn't really support.

 

[Razjah]

So we agree, the challenge doesn't work.

I like the generalist vs specialist. I definitely see Black Widow as a generalist, maybe a specialist for intrigue style adventures. Hawkeye, I'm less sure. But he isn't as focused on heroics as the other Avengers either, so he probably could be built as a generalist.

 

[pauljathome]

I know its not really answering your challenge but Mutants and Masterminds is going to do an insanely better job of this. Almost as if its a d20 based system intended to portray super heros as opposed to portraying faux medieval adventurers.

D20 just doesn't have the granularity to do supers properly. I have no interest in arguing whether Tony Stark has an Int of 17 or 19 when I SHOULD be arguing whether he has an int of 24 or 30.

 

[fireinthedust]

M&M: Yes, I know. And the Marvel Heroic RPG is also fantastic (and really deals well with power level disparity, as it's a story simulation rather than a physics simulation).


FIX THE RULES: Okay, so rather than dumping the baby with the bath water, let's adjust the rules (I'll edit the first page). I was thinking of clarifying this anyway, and with examples.

AMMENDMENTS:

1) Stats: Use "appropriate" numbers, and you better justify them. 30 point-buy for preference, but use what you truly need.

The point buy limit was to excite the imagination, so we don't have the "reverence unbalance" affect beloved characters (ie: ability scores inflated to benefit characters we like because we want them to be "awesome" and think this will achieve that).

10 should be "average", and where possible it should be use. 18 should only be used in exceptional circumstances, like Stark's Int. Peter Parker should be more like 16-17, as really he's a Dex-focused character. As many stats should be average as is reasonable. If these characters are the protagonists, they have the benefit of smart players using them, sneaking a google via an iphone, and swearing to the GM that they really meant to do something other than what they did, especially when the die "hit the wrinkle on the game mat".

This also includes low stats, so if Hulk has a too-low charisma just so you can have him more... dexterous, we can thumb that down, too.

No stats above normal human maximums, and never more than one 18 unless seriously justified.


2) Levels: Use what you need, but for preference TRY to keep them below 10th level. SFX are really powerful against NPCs, and this is supposed to be a challenge... but we want at least a few levels to show off, so this is fair. anyway, compared to 1st-3rd level non-heroics, it's not hard to be "super".


3) Source materials: d20 Modern is the foundation, HOWEVER you can add in other classes as appropriate. Use any d20 book that is appropriate, not including M&M and other pure point-buy books that aren't class-based. In fact, if you can specifically AVOID a d20 Supers book, this will be more fun. Classes and templates are allowed. YOU MUST CITE THE SOURCE MATERIALS USED SOMEHOW so we can check your work and make sure you're doing it correctly.


4) (and this should really help, but it's almost cheating) YOU CAN REQUEST ONE SPECIAL EXCEPTION, though we the community can say "that's unnecessary" or otherwise poo-poo it. Exceptions should not be a mechanical boost, but rather hand-wave a minor detail to allow for the build. If you need more than one exception, you need to re-think your build approach.

Example: Hulk. I fully intend to allow a different "body" for Hulk, but it should somehow be equivalent in terms of stat-points to the Banner body, but swapped around. This is not an excuse to make a super-statted mega-body with high dex/con/str, though a good Str/Dex would be fine (hulk isn't agile, really, so that stat choice should be thumbed down); if Banner used 30 point buy, and you can justify it, then the hulk-base could use 30 point buy.

Example 2: I would be inclined to allow Hawkeye to use the Gunslinger class for his archery, even though they're not specifically "guns".


What do you think? Can you accept my challenge now?

 

[fireinthedust]

And, I would like to stress this: Creating characters that are 30-point buy usable, would be awesome. Iron Man may have a 26-30 Int, but if you can get us there via RAW, levelling, etc., I'd love to see it.

 

[delericho]

I'll stick with my 'entry'. As d20 Modern starter characters, I think they're about as close as I could reasonably make them.

I'm also going to stick with my assertion that both M&M and even D&D make for better models. Indeed, I'm a little surprised at just how well D&D can model these characters.