d20 Modern: What Would you change part II
- Thread starter Vigilance
- Start date
direrodent
First Post
A stupid and somewhat unimportant question about Modern20:
Since it appears to be an OGL, rather than D20, release, is Modern20 a stand alone game, with character generation and such, or does it require D20 Modern to use?
Doesn't really matter, since I own D20 Modern, just curious I guess.
Since it appears to be an OGL, rather than D20, release, is Modern20 a stand alone game, with character generation and such, or does it require D20 Modern to use?
Doesn't really matter, since I own D20 Modern, just curious I guess.
direrodent
First Post
Excellent, I'll surely be checking it out soon. I'm always open to new ideas for handling XP.
Thanks for the quick reply.
Thanks for the quick reply.
Vigilance
Explorer
I got a final PDF today for last minute proofreading.
We are SO close.
Also, I'd like to take this chance to thank everyone who posted to this thread. No matter how many times you posted, each and every one was a big help, and every one of your screen names will appear under "special thanks" in the book.
We are SO close.
Also, I'd like to take this chance to thank everyone who posted to this thread. No matter how many times you posted, each and every one was a big help, and every one of your screen names will appear under "special thanks" in the book.
As regards setting, I have some suggestions (with the assumption you want to have a Modern, not SF setting, ie not a setting with interstellar star travel):
1) Create one setting. Every DM can create his own setting. Some want to roleplay in a favourite book, but you won't get IP rights, so this is immaterial. If anyone else is interested in a professional setting, it is because they want to have it ready to play and don't have to pay too much attention to it. In other words, if a GM wants some specific setting, he will create it himself. Accordingly I suggest a single setting, but broad enough to use for different purposes and different types of campaigns.
2) Since you will not be able to use a licenced setting, the best way to design one is to start with the kinds of games you can roleplay in it. There are two main activities in a modern RPG game - investigation and combat. You want investigation to take place in a fairly well-known setting - with cities, libraries etc, and usually with police. Alternatively, it can take place in a wilderness, with scarce population - but it will tend to quickly turn into combat.
As for combat, it should take place in some spot when the players won't be afraid of police and won't be able to call for help.
Optimally, there should be also exploration - strange vistas, exotic temples, traps etc. And treasure, including powerful weapons you cannot buy in a shop.
Finally, you need a way for the PCs to gain money without a steady job.
3) It suggests the world should be similar but not identical to our own. Moreover, it should be divided into two zones - one more or less civilised, and the second wholly out of control.
4) The solution - you need a mixture of Stalker and Warhammer Dark Future, and perhaps TORG.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker_(film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_Picnic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Future
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torg
In Stalker novel by Strugatski brothers, Earth have been in a short contact with an alien reality (UFO landing or interdimenishional contact - it is not known). As the result there appeared destroyed Zones, filled with deadly natural hazards and incomprehensible alien technology, some of it quite magical.
5) Short description of the proposed setting:
Alternative Earth, technology level a bit more advanced that modern, but more variable (you can get some SF artefacts if you pay enough, but day-to-day technology is obsolete from our point of view). States, rulers etc are called the same, but aren't identical (the President of USA is called Bush, but he is not the same person). The borders can be different, but it should be left open.
This Earth have been touched by an alien reality. As the result there appeared Zones, where reality works according to a bit different rules. You can find there monsters, deadly traps (reversed gravity, high gravity etc, acids, illusion, deadly artifacts) and wonders - some incredibly expensive. No official forces would enter a Zone, so inside you are on your own (cell-phones don't operate). Some Zones are quite extensive (there should be a big one in the Amazonian jungle, in Kongo etc), some small (there can be a mini-Zone which covers a few buildings in a city). They are used by criminals, would-be wizards etc. Some Lovecraftian horrors can dwell inside or come out and prey on a city, also vampires etc. PCs are by default free-lance specialists who search Zones for anything valuable (you can find there longevity potions, universal cures, and even artifacts granting wishes - and much more valuable things). They can be also secret agents or private detectives.
It is not commonly known, but some Zones can be used as a gateway to quite different realities. Those other planes are filled mostly with ruins, monsters and few crazed survivors, however.
As a result of that irruption, many states have fractured. Capital cities are mostly under control, but in the out-back there rule militias etc. Even in USA there are some completely lawless areas which are not a part of Zones. Middle East is in the grip of a much more terrible insurgency. The Egypt is controlled by it already, and it influences much of Africa.
Their leader is known only as Black Mahdi. It is rumoured that he has been killed and managed a resurrection. It is certain that his followers are sure that he can give them eternal life. As the result, he has many recruits from the West, some of them high military officials or scientists. They already managed to use a synthetized pox and advanced computer viruses against USA, and some desert states are nearly depopulated as the result (luckily, they didn't managed to deploy it on the coasts).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Worm
http://www.terrorisminfo.mipt.org/Dark-Winter.asp
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north573.html
http://usacac.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/MayJun07/Hammes.pdf
1) Create one setting. Every DM can create his own setting. Some want to roleplay in a favourite book, but you won't get IP rights, so this is immaterial. If anyone else is interested in a professional setting, it is because they want to have it ready to play and don't have to pay too much attention to it. In other words, if a GM wants some specific setting, he will create it himself. Accordingly I suggest a single setting, but broad enough to use for different purposes and different types of campaigns.
2) Since you will not be able to use a licenced setting, the best way to design one is to start with the kinds of games you can roleplay in it. There are two main activities in a modern RPG game - investigation and combat. You want investigation to take place in a fairly well-known setting - with cities, libraries etc, and usually with police. Alternatively, it can take place in a wilderness, with scarce population - but it will tend to quickly turn into combat.
As for combat, it should take place in some spot when the players won't be afraid of police and won't be able to call for help.
Optimally, there should be also exploration - strange vistas, exotic temples, traps etc. And treasure, including powerful weapons you cannot buy in a shop.
Finally, you need a way for the PCs to gain money without a steady job.
3) It suggests the world should be similar but not identical to our own. Moreover, it should be divided into two zones - one more or less civilised, and the second wholly out of control.
4) The solution - you need a mixture of Stalker and Warhammer Dark Future, and perhaps TORG.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalker_(film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadside_Picnic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Future
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torg
In Stalker novel by Strugatski brothers, Earth have been in a short contact with an alien reality (UFO landing or interdimenishional contact - it is not known). As the result there appeared destroyed Zones, filled with deadly natural hazards and incomprehensible alien technology, some of it quite magical.
5) Short description of the proposed setting:
Alternative Earth, technology level a bit more advanced that modern, but more variable (you can get some SF artefacts if you pay enough, but day-to-day technology is obsolete from our point of view). States, rulers etc are called the same, but aren't identical (the President of USA is called Bush, but he is not the same person). The borders can be different, but it should be left open.
This Earth have been touched by an alien reality. As the result there appeared Zones, where reality works according to a bit different rules. You can find there monsters, deadly traps (reversed gravity, high gravity etc, acids, illusion, deadly artifacts) and wonders - some incredibly expensive. No official forces would enter a Zone, so inside you are on your own (cell-phones don't operate). Some Zones are quite extensive (there should be a big one in the Amazonian jungle, in Kongo etc), some small (there can be a mini-Zone which covers a few buildings in a city). They are used by criminals, would-be wizards etc. Some Lovecraftian horrors can dwell inside or come out and prey on a city, also vampires etc. PCs are by default free-lance specialists who search Zones for anything valuable (you can find there longevity potions, universal cures, and even artifacts granting wishes - and much more valuable things). They can be also secret agents or private detectives.
It is not commonly known, but some Zones can be used as a gateway to quite different realities. Those other planes are filled mostly with ruins, monsters and few crazed survivors, however.
As a result of that irruption, many states have fractured. Capital cities are mostly under control, but in the out-back there rule militias etc. Even in USA there are some completely lawless areas which are not a part of Zones. Middle East is in the grip of a much more terrible insurgency. The Egypt is controlled by it already, and it influences much of Africa.
Their leader is known only as Black Mahdi. It is rumoured that he has been killed and managed a resurrection. It is certain that his followers are sure that he can give them eternal life. As the result, he has many recruits from the West, some of them high military officials or scientists. They already managed to use a synthetized pox and advanced computer viruses against USA, and some desert states are nearly depopulated as the result (luckily, they didn't managed to deploy it on the coasts).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Worm
http://www.terrorisminfo.mipt.org/Dark-Winter.asp
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north573.html
http://usacac.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/MayJun07/Hammes.pdf
The Shaman
First Post
Well, I'm rather late to the party, but this thread was an interesting read nonetheless.
A couple of thoughts -
1. Depending to some degree on the referee, d20 Modern already handles the issue of "too many" rolls with taking 10 or 20, which in turn also requires differing degrees of time investment. The Research, Knowledge, and Craft checks cited in the example of the bank vault can all be resolved by taking 10 on the roll, and if the character is struggling with the first two, then s/he can take 20, increasing the time required to find the answer - I would also argue that, if materials are not an issue, such as working in a well-stocked laboratory, a referee could allow the Crafting character to take 20 as well.
2. One of the ways I referee Knowledge and Research checks is to create a series of answers, each with its own DC, so one roll can reveal a little or a lot of information, depending on the degree of success. The "president of Wakanda" is a DC 10 Knowledge (current events) skill check (in other words, one for which a character with at least one skill rank will nail automatically by taking 10), or a DC 2 Research check (and I'd waive the time required if the character has Internet access, if that indeed is the only question being asked) - a successful skill check for either could also reveal a lot more information as well, depending on the roll.
In both of these cases, I don't have a problem playing more-or-less by the RAW, with a couple of minor tweaks based on my read as referee of what's actually happening in the game at the time the checks come up. I don't see these as barriers to "getting to the adventure."
And on that note . . .
3. I disagree that skill checks in prep are in fact a barrier to getting to the 'real action' - for many of the games I've run using d20 Modern, preparations are very much an active part of the adventure, not something to be 'got through' to get to the action. Mysteries, horror, espionage - all may require a good deal of in-game legwork, and for me that time spent on Research or Gather Information or Knowledge or Craft checks is very much genre appropriate and a part of the action, not apart from it.
4. I ran a Charismatic soldier in a military game - it's not always about the physical classes.
5. I resolved the "four checks" by allowing players to take the average of their characters' Hide/Move Silently bonuses and Spot/Listen bonuses, calling the combined skill bonus SNEAK and WATCH respectively - one roll for each, cut down on some of the randomness.
(I like the suggestion of reducing this to one roll, using DC = (skill) + 10, but hey, rolling against the players is fun, too!)
6. An alternative to combining skills is to grant more skill points instead - one idea I've toyed with but not tried yet is allowing a character additional skill points that may only be applied to class skills. For example, a Tough hero with 12 INT gets 4 skill points per level - my idea was to give the character two additional skill points (1/2 the skill points earned for the level, rounded down) that could only be applied to Tough class skills.
I'm not wild about some of the combined skills - too broad, to me - and I like the idea that certain base classes are better at some types of skills than others. I think that allowing a Tough hero to invest skill points in Intimidate as a class skill, but not Diplomacy or Bluff, makes sense and reinforces the archetype - lumping those together as 'Influence' definitely takes away from that in my opinion, even with the Perks rule (at least as I understood it - perhaps I missed something?).
And in the pet peeve department . . .
7. The class names are too precious by half. Some people find that 'flavorful' - I find it cloying. (This is one of the many reasons I dislike Spycraft as well - way too cutesy for my tastes.)
Clearly I'm not who this game is aimed at - my own two-pages of house rules for d20 Modern are more than adequate for my needs. Best of luck with your project, though.
A couple of thoughts -
1. Depending to some degree on the referee, d20 Modern already handles the issue of "too many" rolls with taking 10 or 20, which in turn also requires differing degrees of time investment. The Research, Knowledge, and Craft checks cited in the example of the bank vault can all be resolved by taking 10 on the roll, and if the character is struggling with the first two, then s/he can take 20, increasing the time required to find the answer - I would also argue that, if materials are not an issue, such as working in a well-stocked laboratory, a referee could allow the Crafting character to take 20 as well.
2. One of the ways I referee Knowledge and Research checks is to create a series of answers, each with its own DC, so one roll can reveal a little or a lot of information, depending on the degree of success. The "president of Wakanda" is a DC 10 Knowledge (current events) skill check (in other words, one for which a character with at least one skill rank will nail automatically by taking 10), or a DC 2 Research check (and I'd waive the time required if the character has Internet access, if that indeed is the only question being asked) - a successful skill check for either could also reveal a lot more information as well, depending on the roll.
In both of these cases, I don't have a problem playing more-or-less by the RAW, with a couple of minor tweaks based on my read as referee of what's actually happening in the game at the time the checks come up. I don't see these as barriers to "getting to the adventure."
And on that note . . .
3. I disagree that skill checks in prep are in fact a barrier to getting to the 'real action' - for many of the games I've run using d20 Modern, preparations are very much an active part of the adventure, not something to be 'got through' to get to the action. Mysteries, horror, espionage - all may require a good deal of in-game legwork, and for me that time spent on Research or Gather Information or Knowledge or Craft checks is very much genre appropriate and a part of the action, not apart from it.
4. I ran a Charismatic soldier in a military game - it's not always about the physical classes.
5. I resolved the "four checks" by allowing players to take the average of their characters' Hide/Move Silently bonuses and Spot/Listen bonuses, calling the combined skill bonus SNEAK and WATCH respectively - one roll for each, cut down on some of the randomness.
(I like the suggestion of reducing this to one roll, using DC = (skill) + 10, but hey, rolling against the players is fun, too!)
6. An alternative to combining skills is to grant more skill points instead - one idea I've toyed with but not tried yet is allowing a character additional skill points that may only be applied to class skills. For example, a Tough hero with 12 INT gets 4 skill points per level - my idea was to give the character two additional skill points (1/2 the skill points earned for the level, rounded down) that could only be applied to Tough class skills.
I'm not wild about some of the combined skills - too broad, to me - and I like the idea that certain base classes are better at some types of skills than others. I think that allowing a Tough hero to invest skill points in Intimidate as a class skill, but not Diplomacy or Bluff, makes sense and reinforces the archetype - lumping those together as 'Influence' definitely takes away from that in my opinion, even with the Perks rule (at least as I understood it - perhaps I missed something?).
And in the pet peeve department . . .
7. The class names are too precious by half. Some people find that 'flavorful' - I find it cloying. (This is one of the many reasons I dislike Spycraft as well - way too cutesy for my tastes.)
Clearly I'm not who this game is aimed at - my own two-pages of house rules for d20 Modern are more than adequate for my needs. Best of luck with your project, though.
That's very kind, thanks!Vigilance said:
Funny, for about a week now I've been mentally building a campaign set in Victorian times with a Stargate that leads to the Forgotten Realms map (a post-apocalyptic version of it). It would feel very similar like a gateway leading to ruins, monsters, and a few crazed survivors. Odd.Baduin said:
The whole idea of a fractured earth time-space is cool and with adventures zones it's very City of Heroes. I'd be happy to see Vigilance apply his smarts to making a uniquely new take on the TORGish campaign concept.
Vigilance
Explorer
The Shaman said:
Hey Shaman, thanks for the thoughts.
In general, I think some folks read the stuff I'm saying here and use that to reach conclusions far beyond what I actually think about d20M, or tried to do in Modern20.
Such is the nature of internet communication (or lack thereof).
I haven't tried to get rid of preparation, merely streamline it. Reducing the amount of dice rolling in preparation by no means should be taken as a statement that I think in-character preparation should go away and die a lonely death.
Along the same lines, I by no means feel (and I'm fairly certain I never said) that d20 Modern was "all about the physical classes".
I just feel that a class should get something pretty special in return for a slow attack bonus and a slow defense bonus, which a few of the mental classes in d20M have.
If you look at D&D, as a counter-example, classes with the worst BAB typically are spellcasting classes.
Conversely, I think the abilities the Smart and Charismatic Hero get are much more in line with those of other characters, certainly in line enough that they shouldn't have both a bad BAB and a bad Defense progression.
I mean, the Smart Hero has the Defense Bonus at 10th level that a Fast Hero has at 1st level.
I was simply pointing out that some of the class balance is wonky, in my opinion.
That doesn't equal "all about the physical classes" imo.
It was just one example, of many, of places where I was correcting issues I had with d20M. If I didn't have any issues, I wouldn't have taken several months, and a lot of productivity time that could have been risked on other money-making ventures, to write this book.
It was certainly more work than, say, a sourcebook for an established game would have been. So if I didn't have a take on how the game could be improved, I wouldn't have gone down this road.
This isn't to say that my take is the only take, I certainly hope no one took that away from comments I made in this thread. But I have been running d20 Modern for a long time, since before the books were released in fact, since Wizards was kind enough to hook me up with a pre-release copy of the rules.
I've also spent a lot of time tinkering with those rules and getting inside the mechanics.
Again, I'm sure others have different takes than mine, equally valid.
This is a book that I hope will do for d20M what Monte's alternate PHB did for D&D.
Certainly it won't be to everyone's taste, but I think for some it will be a nice alternative.
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