d20 Star Wars Saga Edition news from Gen Con?

[Twiggly the Gnome]

Yes, they were appropriate for emulating star wars. The Star Wars galaxy was a wide place, Jedi were not the only force users, so the Force Adept did have a logical role, especially if the Jedi were refusing to take on anyone beyond a certain age.

From what I've been able to glean from the WotC boards the role of the Force Adept will now be filled by giving the other classes better access force powers. So a militant tradition might be represented by force sensitive Soldiers, a more passive one by force sensitive Nobles, the more rustic ones by force sensitive Scouts, and force sensitive Scoundrels would represent the shadowy types. I think that approach might just have some merit over the current one, which dumps them all into a single class with abilities that might not appropriate to the character's tradition.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

No, but Leia got a pretty nasty wound from a stray blaster bolt at the Battle of Endor.

But was that 3d8 points of damage (or whatever damage blaster rifles do these days) against maybe 14 wound points, or was it just double damage from a critical hit?
You could probably argue both ways, but it didn't seem to me as if Leia was taken out of the fight for longer or needed a long recovery.

But the most important fact is that no main character has ever been taken out by a single shot, which is quite possible with WP/VP. But minor "characters" (mooks) often did - I think that can be better represented by few HD (and thus hp) than by Wound Points...

 

[Vigilance]

Because the players want that sense of danger, that at any time, they could be crippled or befallen. At the same time, the allegedly elite X*-troopers are supposedly be the creme de la creme yet they keep dropping like flies from Episodes 4 and on.

Yes, it's hard to to fit the rules to the universe that is already whacked to begin with. Kids, let's thank George Lucas for ruining Star Wars with the prequels.

*Unenthusiastically yet angry kids* "Thanks, Georgie-boy."

Right but the PCs were never really dropped by a sudden, well-struck blow were they?

Maybe Qui-Gon, but Im not sure Id consider him a PC.

 

[Vigilance]

Yes, they were appropriate for emulating star wars. The Star Wars galaxy was a wide place, Jedi were not the only force users, so the Force Adept did have a logical role, especially if the Jedi were refusing to take on anyone beyond a certain age.

Uh dude, if they made it a SKILL... then "force adepts" could be any class with the Use Force skill who don't have levels in a Jedi class.

Sounds like the concept is not only still there, but much broader than it was before.

As for going to HP, I always liked HP and a MDT save much better than VP/WP.

Tracking two different kinds of damage is kludgy.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Based on what I've seen here and on the WotC boards, this looks to have gone from "It shall be MINE!" to "I'll look it over on the store shelf and then decide."

The one of the two changes that I'm really miffed over is the loss of the Force Adept, Fringer, and Tech Specialist classes. Personally, I've used Fringer quite a bit, and in every SW game I've been in or run, there's always been at least one character that had Fringer levels. Tech Specialist as written in the RCR is a bit weak, but I'd implemented house rules to beef them up a bit since the RCR came out, and the latest RCR errata makes officially makes them more playable. Force Adept could have used a bit more versatility instead of being stuck as a "primitive shaman," but it still had it's place.

The other is that Force powers are being "streamlined" into a single skill check. People were already ranting and howling about how over-powered Jedi were compared to everyone else, and if Jedi now only have to have one Force skill and minimal feats to do their thing, I'd imagine those rants are going to escalate in volume. Especially if there's no cost (like the current version's VP cost) to keep Jedi from using their powers willy-nilly. That was one of the things I always hated about d6 Star Wars, was that Force-users had no in-game restraint on what they could and could not do with their powers.

Yeah, it may have "official" RotS info, but then again there's also that really sweet RotS suppliment Gary Sarli put together on the official site that has plenty of RotS info, uses the RCR ruleset, and better yet is free.

 

[wingsandsword]

Right but the PCs were never really dropped by a sudden, well-struck blow were they?

Maybe Qui-Gon, but Im not sure Id consider him a PC.

Leia on Endor at the bunker entrance? She was hit and incapacitated by a single shot out of nowhere, she was dropped, but not out for good. I've always used that as a good example of a critical hit, with a fairly low damage roll, in WP/VP.

Luke on Tatooine fighting the Sand People? They got one good hit on him and he was out, and Obi-Wan had to use the Force to heal him.

Padme on Mustafar? This is the same woman who only 3 years ago was fighting the entire arena as well, or better, than Anakin and Obi-Wan, but is mortally wounded by one attack by Vader. Seems like that could be represented with a critical hit by Vader there.

Also, one thing bothers me about consolidating the Force Adept into other classes is why not just make Jedi Guardians into Soldiers who buy Use Force and have Lightsaber proficiency then? Or Jedi Consulars be Nobles who do the same then? Why do you only have a force-using base class if you are a Jedi, instead of being an Ithorian Nature Priest, a Jensaraai, a Witch of Dathomir, a Baran-Do Sage, a Killian Ranger, a Krath, or any one of dozens of force-traditions throughout the galaxy.

On the WotC boards, Gary Sarli is insisting that things like Control, Sense and Alter aren't gone, they just aren't feats anymore. It makes me wonder how is Use Force not too powerful if it's only one skill (when consolidating into 4 skills as an optional rule he proposed about a year ago was seen as very powerful), it also makes me wonder what Control, Sense, and Alter will be now. If they were class features of the Jedi, that kind of shoots down the "any class can be a Force Adept" theory. Do you get them with certain number of ranks in Use Force? How do you represent characters like Corran Horn, or the Fallanassi, who have specific limitations in their ability to use the Force, like being unable to perform telekinetic actions?

The people involved in the making of this game do have very good reputations within Star Wars gaming, but the early word seems like something to make us wary.

 

[Vigilance]

Leia on Endor at the bunker entrance? She was hit and incapacitated by a single shot out of nowhere, she was dropped, but not out for good. I've always used that as a good example of a critical hit, with a fairly low damage roll, in WP/VP.

Luke on Tatooine fighting the Sand People? They got one good hit on him and he was out, and Obi-Wan had to use the Force to heal him.

Padme on Mustafar? This is the same woman who only 3 years ago was fighting the entire arena as well, or better, than Anakin and Obi-Wan, but is mortally wounded by one attack by Vader. Seems like that could be represented with a critical hit by Vader there.

Well, the ability for all those things to happen is still in the game, just with a failed MDT save rather than loss of WP.

And to my mind, MDT is a much smoother mechanic than tracking two different kinds of damage. Obviously YMMV but this seems like it doesn't change anything storywise, just uses a smoother mechanic.

Also, one thing bothers me about consolidating the Force Adept into other classes is why not just make Jedi Guardians into Soldiers who buy Use Force and have Lightsaber proficiency then? Or Jedi Consulars be Nobles who do the same then? Why do you only have a force-using base class if you are a Jedi, instead of being an Ithorian Nature Priest, a Jensaraai, a Witch of Dathomir, a Baran-Do Sage, a Killian Ranger, a Krath, or any one of dozens of force-traditions throughout the galaxy.

On the WotC boards, Gary Sarli is insisting that things like Control, Sense and Alter aren't gone, they just aren't feats anymore. It makes me wonder how is Use Force not too powerful if it's only one skill (when consolidating into 4 skills as an optional rule he proposed about a year ago was seen as very powerful), it also makes me wonder what Control, Sense, and Alter will be now. If they were class features of the Jedi, that kind of shoots down the "any class can be a Force Adept" theory. Do you get them with certain number of ranks in Use Force? How do you represent characters like Corran Horn, or the Fallanassi, who have specific limitations in their ability to use the Force, like being unable to perform telekinetic actions?

The people involved in the making of this game do have very good reputations within Star Wars gaming, but the early word seems like something to make us wary.

Well the devil is in the details with a change like this but I don't see anything about making it a skill that screams "bad mechanic". Since I haven't seen it, I can't judge, it could be good or bad.

I was just pointing out that force adepts aren't gone.

Im also sure they gave Jedi some mechanical help to make them more skilled at Force use than other classes.

 

[Knight Otu]

Also, one thing bothers me about consolidating the Force Adept into other classes is why not just make Jedi Guardians into Soldiers who buy Use Force and have Lightsaber proficiency then? Or Jedi Consulars be Nobles who do the same then? Why do you only have a force-using base class if you are a Jedi, instead of being an Ithorian Nature Priest, a Jensaraai, a Witch of Dathomir, a Baran-Do Sage, a Killian Ranger, a Krath, or any one of dozens of force-traditions throughout the galaxy.

Radical thought - maybe the Jedi classes are being renamed into, say, Force Warrior and Force Consular?

On the WotC boards, Gary Sarli is insisting that things like Control, Sense and Alter aren't gone, they just aren't feats anymore. It makes me wonder how is Use Force not too powerful if it's only one skill (when consolidating into 4 skills as an optional rule he proposed about a year ago was seen as very powerful), it also makes me wonder what Control, Sense, and Alter will be now. If they were class features of the Jedi, that kind of shoots down the "any class can be a Force Adept" theory. Do you get them with certain number of ranks in Use Force? How do you represent characters like Corran Horn, or the Fallanassi, who have specific limitations in their ability to use the Force, like being unable to perform telekinetic actions?

Idea - When gaining Force ranks, you learn "Jedi tricks." Perhaps a feat that allows gaining extra tricks. Kind of like Perform used to work.
Characters unable to perform certain Force abilities can't learn those tricks (or they are the inevitable exception that always surfaces whenever something is said to be impossible). And even if there is no such Trick system, the guys who can't do a certain Force Move - can't do that certain Force Move. Rather than saying "They can't get ranks in Move Object", it says "They can't make Use Force checks for Telekinesis", or perhaps "They always fail Use Force checks for Telekinesis."

 

[CrusaderX]

Here are the quotes from Gary M. Sarli @ the WotC boards:

1) There is just one Force skill, called Use the Force. This way, you don't have to put all your skills into Force skills (and still not come close to mastering all of them). Think of it as being kind of like the Concentration skill for spellcasters in D&D, although Use the Force does a lot more than Concentration.

2) Use the Force does some basic, universal stuff, all by itself -- no training is necessarily required, but you obviously have to be Force-sensitive. For example, Anakin Skywalker (as an 8-year-old podracer) would have been perfectly able to use all of these things (giving him "Jedi reflexes") even though he hadn't received any formal training.

3) In addition to that one skill, there are Force powers. If a skill check is necessary (as is usually but not always the case), you just make a Use the Force check. (Again, this allows the Force users to concentrate on one skill and still be able to be good at something else.)

4) Alter, Control, and Sense still exist -- they're just not feats anymore.

5) As we mentioned in the seminar, the classes that were eliminated have had their best stuff ported over to other classes. Thus, the Force Adept isn't really gone -- instead, a Force-sensitive soldier could be used to represent a combat-oriented Force Adept, a Force-sensitive scout might represent the more familiar backwater-planet Force Adept, a Force-sensitive scoundrel might make a dark-side-assassin Force Adept, and so forth.

Another very good point I'd like to emphasize:

* We are not dumbing down the game.
* We are streamlining some rules so that actions are resolved more quickly, thereby speeding gameplay.
* In some cases, such streamlining may result in simplification, but it is not for the purpose of trying to target the game at kids or underestimating your intelligence. A streamlined game that runs faster (and thus has a more cinematic pacing) is more fun for everyone ... that includes old veterans like us, not just kids.
* But don't worry, there is still plenty of complexity to be had.

 

[Hammerhead]

I always hated VP/WP. It was just about the worst damage tracking ever.

The Fringer and Tech Op classes were horrifically weak, and I certainly won't miss them. I also fail to see why there should be a distinction between "Consulars" and "Guardians." Have we ever seen a character in the movies who's good with the Force but sucks with a lightsabre?