[d20F] Dawning Star Preview Available for Download [on hold]

[Nisarg]

Folks, don't worry too much about Nisarg's venom. He seems to have developed a distaste for me based upon an entirely unrelated thread on a different board. I suspect much of his criticism is founded on that animosity.

Thanks for the character assasination, but actually, I haven't got the slightest idea who you are. Guess you might not be as crucial as you think.

My complaints are legitimate ones, by no means exclusive to your product, but rather a general concern about a lot of sci fi. Namely, that too many sci fi games (and other media) fail to cover the reality of just HOW MUCH changes over the course of centuries, and just how radically different a society would be; and of course that there tends to be certain nation-centrism from a particular nation when it comes to their own sci fi.

A good example of an exception to the first rule is the "future timeline" element of Continuum. It makes it pretty damn clear that in a relatively short span of time, human society is going to be nothing like what we are now, and will be valuing things we can't even comprehend at this point. The pace of change (technological, scientific, social, and political) is in fact accelerating at an alarming rate, and if any one of us was frozen in carbonite and woke up even 50 years from now, its very likely that we'd find it disturbingly foreign. If we woke up 100 years from now, we would probably find it shocking. And 200 or more years from now, it would be so unrecognizeable as to be truly alien to us.

Nisarg

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

Thanks for the character assasination, but actually, I haven't got the slightest idea who you are. Guess you might not be as crucial as you think.

I find that somewhat hard to believe. You went after me pretty good in this thread, and I don't have the most creative screen names on this board or that one.

In any case, you do have a fairly brusque style. (I would say your use of the term "character assassination" is an exhibit of that.) If I misinterpreted it as a personal attack, I apologize.

My complaints are legitimate ones, by no means exclusive to your product, but rather a general concern about a lot of sci fi. Namely, that too many sci fi games (and other media) fail to cover the reality of just HOW MUCH changes over the course of centuries, and just how radically different a society would be; and of course that there tends to be certain nation-centrism from a particular nation when it comes to their own sci fi.

A good example of an exception to the first rule is the "future timeline" element of Continuum. It makes it pretty damn clear that in a relatively short span of time, human society is going to be nothing like what we are now, and will be valuing things we can't even comprehend at this point. The pace of change (technological, scientific, social, and political) is in fact accelerating at an alarming rate, and if any one of us was frozen in carbonite and woke up even 50 years from now, its very likely that we'd find it disturbingly foreign. If we woke up 100 years from now, we would probably find it shocking. And 200 or more years from now, it would be so unrecognizeable as to be truly alien to us.

I would say that your complaints are not legitimate for two reasons: (1) you haven't looked at the whole setting yet, and (2) what you cite as gospel above is, in the end, merely theory. Even if it is the most likely outcome, it would be folly to suggest that it's the only one. As a game designer (I don't use that term lightly; see the other thread), I selected what I felt to be a plausible future that I thought would make a fun setting--and, yes, commercialy viable as well.

 

[Roudi]

Nisarg:

In the words of Ralts: "Put up or shut up."

Obviously, Dawning Star isn't your cup of tea, and from the sound of it, neither is much of today's popular science fiction. There's nothing wrong with with having a creative dispute over different individual's beliefs about the future. However, it is not the responsibility of Mr. Jacobson to cater to your specific vision of a science fiction universe. If you disagree with the concepts presented in Dawning Star, then you always have the ability to exercise your consumer rights. Simply do not purchase the material. If you think sci-fi should be done differently, then do it yourself. It's that simple. If you do not see the kind of sci-fi you think should exist, then it is your responsibility to make it.

By no means am I trying to insult you. I would only rather see you put as much attention and thought into producing something creative and original as you do in attacking Mr. Jacobson.

Roudi.

 

[Nisarg]

I find that somewhat hard to believe. You went after me pretty good in this thread, and I don't have the most creative screen names on this board or that one.

Yup, sorry, barely know of your existence.
Until you brought up the link, not only did I have no idea of who you were, I didn't even remember that thread.
In that thread, btw, I spent more time arguing with several other people than I did with you, though now of course I do remember you as the game designer who asked a question on a public board that I thought your typical game designer would already know the answer to.

Anyways, please believe me that my criticism of Dawning Star was purely based on this thread, and not at all on that earlier thread, of which I remembered nothing about you.

Nisarg
who writes in a lot of threads

 

[Nisarg]

Nisarg:

In the words of Ralts: "Put up or shut up."

Obviously, Dawning Star isn't your cup of tea, and from the sound of it, neither is much of today's popular science fiction. There's nothing wrong with with having a creative dispute over different individual's beliefs about the future. However, it is not the responsibility of Mr. Jacobson to cater to your specific vision of a science fiction universe. If you disagree with the concepts presented in Dawning Star, then you always have the ability to exercise your consumer rights. Simply do not purchase the material. If you think sci-fi should be done differently, then do it yourself. It's that simple. If you do not see the kind of sci-fi you think should exist, then it is your responsibility to make it.

By no means am I trying to insult you. I would only rather see you put as much attention and thought into producing something creative and original as you do in attacking Mr. Jacobson.

Roudi.

Um, right, well, except that Mr. Jacobson clearly started this thread to present the results of his works, and unless you're suggesting he's only looking for drooling sycophants to fawn over his genius, I could not but assume that he was actually looking for people to give their comments and criticism.

In other words, you're saying "what business is it of yours to criticize his work"?
And I'm saying "he made it the business of the people that took the time to read his introduction to DS, by posting the link to that introduction in a public board, clearly in search of commentary".

So, yes, I will clearly practice my rights as a consumer, and choose what I buy and don't buy. But likewise, when someone goes to the trouble of posting his work in a thread I read, I will go to the trouble of telling him what I feel is its virtues or faults.

Nisarg

 

[Peterson]

I will go to the trouble of telling him what I feel is its virtues or faults.
Nisarg

Just curious here, cause I've got a bad memory, but was there anything you did like about the setting preview that Mr. Jacobson put out?

I'm asking cause all I remember reading about were the things that were "faults" by your standards, and I would expect that most people would take any criticism better if one would list both the positive (virtues) and the negative (faults).

Just wondering,

Peterson

 

[Nisarg]

Just curious here, cause I've got a bad memory, but was there anything you did like about the setting preview that Mr. Jacobson put out?

I'm asking cause all I remember reading about were the things that were "faults" by your standards, and I would expect that most people would take any criticism better if one would list both the positive (virtues) and the negative (faults).

Just wondering,

Peterson

There were some things, yes, but since most posters had thus far emphasized their positive reviews, I thought to jump in with what i felt were particular negative issues that in effect spoiled the setting for me (the rampant americanism, and tied into that the lack of real human cultural change in his future).

In terms of what is good: let me say first of all that the layout of the pdf itself was very good, easy to follow; and the format of the book was very good too, as a kind of faux-history book (which in my mind is highly preferable to a white wolf-style lengthy fan-fiction piece at the front).

In terms of the setting itself, probably the best thing about it is that it is one of those rare sci-fi games (like Blue Planet) that pretty much focuses only on one world.
That said, it sounds from subsequent posts that the author intends to eventually go the route of Heavy Gear, and end up "expanding" the setting. He would be wise to study the case of HG and make sure he does not "expand" the setting into oblivion, by losing the original premise.

I found the detail of the history very good, (which only made it more frustrating that the tacked-on 20th century cultural and political values felt so fake as a result) and I liked the elements of a "mystery story" to the setting, with a few unanswered questions. But ONLY on two conditions: that either all of those mysteries are already explained in the DM section of the book, or that it is made clear that no future supplement would EVER "answer" those questions in a way that directly affects the Eos setting itself (leaving the DM free to solve those mysteries in his campaign any way he wishes).
Its fine if he wants to do a supplement about some other ship, that landed on some other world, that wouldn't have any impact on the campaign of a GM already playing in Eos.
It would be quite another if, say, the author presents this darkling mystery, and the DM thinks up a way to "solve" it in his campaign, only for the author to go on to "solve" it in a totally different way that completely screws the DM's campaign.
And NO, telling DM's "not to reveal this, you'll have to wait and see for our future supplement" is NOT a business or game design practice that works.
Look at Brave New World, look at Deadlands.
The games that do that kind of thing end up dead. D20's whole existence is as a reaction against that kind of story-based gaming, so if you want to succeed don't do that. Its not a clever way to get readers to buy your next product, its just a stupid way to piss people off.
Consider that some friendly advice.

But then, the author must already know all this, because he's a real game designer.

Nisarg

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I love it when we all get along.

For my part I think the speculative focus of the work is valid, interesting, and I hope to see the product in its entirety.

--fje

 

[Acid_crash]

I am gonna get this book, I like it for what it is, and it will be easy to convert to GURPS or HERO 5ER. Who says it has to be d20?

I think Dawning Star is gonna be pretty cool, and I am bummed that it's gonna get delayed due to the so-called artist lying about the pictures. Quite a bummer, and so lacks the xmas spirit.