d20M: new Talent Trees?
- Thread starter jeffh
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malladin said:
Not to Hijack - but any reason by Etherscope core book and Just A Delivery are listed at RPGNow in just the 'Modern' category, while all other supplements are listed under d20 modern general?
Not that I think the sales numbers are bad, but I would figure they'd be much improved in the d20 modern section other than just 'modern.'
Psion
Adventurer
Flynn said:
Well, I have it now, but I'm probably going to be too busy putting together GenCon games to throw a formal review together in the near term.
Any specific questions?
The book introduces classes similar to the existing D&D classes using classes formatted similar to D20 Modern base classes, but using new adjectives that aren't strictly associated with one stat... like cunning hero (rogue), savage hero (barbarian), warlike hero (fighter), learned hero (wizard), etc. There are a few of the classes that represent different archetypes or make them work (like shadowborn, which makes things like blackguard, shadow dancer, assassin, and dragon disciple work).
(As a side note, if you prefer these as advanced classes, it has notes on how to do that, too.)
There are examples in the book on how to approximate most of the core and prestige classes in the SRD. In viewing those, it because pretty plain how specific these builds are, and that there is plenty of room to make unique concepts of your own.
The example builds depends on "plus" feats presented in the book, similar to the ones in D20 Future. One can see how they are sort of necessary to make some of the approximations tick.
The book does reference talent trees out of the POSTMODERN talent tree compendium for many of the classes.
I'm a little uncomfortable with the way magic works out... it feels a little forced, and inferior to magic advanced classes for d20 modern. Not sure what else the author could have done, though.
It's a snazzy little book. I've complained at various times about how certain classes REALLY need to be more flexible (bard, monk, I am looking at you.) This book fills that need, opening up a variety of archetypes without having to have dozens of new base classes to do it.
In the end, its like a half-step between D&D and True20, and sort of keeping better aspects of both. The classes with talent trees have some implicit structure you don't get out of True20, and keeps a lot of D&D "good stuff" that True20 tosses, but you get a lot of the "free combination" ability that True20 affords you.
I'd say if the way Grim Tales captured some D&D class abilities (you are a Grim Tales fan, aren't you?), but would like to see the concept taken further, but aren't uncomfortable with new base classes or modeling advanced classes like base classes, it's probably worth the price tag.
Edit: Heck, that's 80% of a review right there.
Rpgobjects is about to release a supplement for Blood and Relics which I co-wrote with Mark Gedak, called Blood and Relics: Demonic Heroes.
The pdf has a number of talent trees.
here's an example of one.
Demon Body Talent Tree
A demonblood hero is able to grow into a body more fitting his demonic heritage as he ages and grows in life experiences. Each of the talents in this tree help shape the body of the demonblood hero into a more demonic form.
Alternate Form: The public face that a demonblood hero wears is not a true reflection of the corruption within. The demonblood hero has two forms, that of a normal human and that of his demonic heritage. Upon taking this talent the demonblood hero can, as a full round action, shift between human and demonic form. Some of the talents in the Demon Body tree and Bloodline trees can only be used in demonic form. The demonblood hero gains a +2 bonus on Intimidate skill checks but a -2 penalty on Disguise skill checks while in this fiendish form.
Bite: The demonblood hero can make a bite attack (1d6) while in demonic form.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Claws: The demonblood hero can make claw attacks (1d4) as a full attack action while in demonic form. This ability also grants the demonblood hero a +4 racial bonus on Climb skill checks.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Demon Skin: The demonblood hero gains a +1 natural armor bonus as his hide becomes tougher by his unnatural heritage. This talent may be multiple times.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Resistance I: The demonblood hero gains +4 to saving throws vs. poison.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Resistance II: The demonblood hero gains +4 to saving throws vs. disease.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Improved Claws: The Demonblood hero’s claw attacks inflict 1d6 damage while in demonic form.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form, Claws
Water Breathing: The demonblood hero can breathe underwater as well as on land with a complex gill/lung system
Prerequisites: Alternate Form, Bloodline (Envy) (any talent)
The pdf has a number of talent trees.
here's an example of one.
Demon Body Talent Tree
A demonblood hero is able to grow into a body more fitting his demonic heritage as he ages and grows in life experiences. Each of the talents in this tree help shape the body of the demonblood hero into a more demonic form.
Alternate Form: The public face that a demonblood hero wears is not a true reflection of the corruption within. The demonblood hero has two forms, that of a normal human and that of his demonic heritage. Upon taking this talent the demonblood hero can, as a full round action, shift between human and demonic form. Some of the talents in the Demon Body tree and Bloodline trees can only be used in demonic form. The demonblood hero gains a +2 bonus on Intimidate skill checks but a -2 penalty on Disguise skill checks while in this fiendish form.
Bite: The demonblood hero can make a bite attack (1d6) while in demonic form.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Claws: The demonblood hero can make claw attacks (1d4) as a full attack action while in demonic form. This ability also grants the demonblood hero a +4 racial bonus on Climb skill checks.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Demon Skin: The demonblood hero gains a +1 natural armor bonus as his hide becomes tougher by his unnatural heritage. This talent may be multiple times.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Resistance I: The demonblood hero gains +4 to saving throws vs. poison.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Resistance II: The demonblood hero gains +4 to saving throws vs. disease.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form
Improved Claws: The Demonblood hero’s claw attacks inflict 1d6 damage while in demonic form.
Prerequisites: Alternate Form, Claws
Water Breathing: The demonblood hero can breathe underwater as well as on land with a complex gill/lung system
Prerequisites: Alternate Form, Bloodline (Envy) (any talent)
Matrix Sorcica
Hero
Flynn, I have the pdf as well. I agree with Psion. I think it will be a good fit for the way you're trying to go with your d20 gaming (from our iterative discussion).Flynn said:
Heck, for $ 3.95 (54 + 15 pages) you can't really go wrong, if not for anything else, then idea mining.
EditorBFG
Explorer
Finally, the answer is yes! There is an RPG Now staff review here: http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=21792&reviews_id=15953&Flynn said:
That said, after Gen Con, I would love for Psion to put up his comments as a review as well...
Speaking of which:
This is a criticism I am sensitive to, because you're right. But as you say, I'm not sure how else I could have done it. It's tough, too, because I am so proud of the rest of the book (especially the "archetypal," more customizable nature of the base classes).Psion said:
EDIT: I just realized I had written up a house-rule I had for psionics with these rules as a house-rule for magic. So I deleted it. I am dumb sometimes.
Seems a lot of folks have downloaded this book. Anybody put any of the Talents to use yet, and if so how did it go??
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Saw this conversation rather late, so I don't know if your question has been sufficiently answered, but let me add this:
I'm running two d20 Modern campaigns right now, and I wanted to expand Talent Trees, so I purchased 22 Talent Trees, and Another 22 Talent Trees.
The first one is a mixed bag. The second, in my opinion, was a real stinker. I had to remove a few talent trees, like the Tough Hero tree that gives you SR 27 by 7th level.
Another 22 Talent Trees seems to simply bastardize a lot of material from D&D 3.0/3.5, like the Rage talent tree. Since I went into d20 Modern to play a different sort of game than D&D, most of the material in Another 22 Talent Trees held no appeal for me at all.
I'm running two d20 Modern campaigns right now, and I wanted to expand Talent Trees, so I purchased 22 Talent Trees, and Another 22 Talent Trees.
The first one is a mixed bag. The second, in my opinion, was a real stinker. I had to remove a few talent trees, like the Tough Hero tree that gives you SR 27 by 7th level.
Another 22 Talent Trees seems to simply bastardize a lot of material from D&D 3.0/3.5, like the Rage talent tree. Since I went into d20 Modern to play a different sort of game than D&D, most of the material in Another 22 Talent Trees held no appeal for me at all.
